Predator vs. Pico?

[bhd812]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif because I still have this tiny hope in me that one day where that one special little portable amp will rise up and sing with glory the songs that are only known to its bigger AC brethren; that one day the portable amps will be free from their filthy, stinky, nasty stigmas; and that one day I can finally be awed and inspired by the little wonder.

You brought me back to a memory around the time of my very first headphone meet when everyone there and everyone on the boards was saying the SR-71 was the portable to do this. then every portable amp on the market afterwards was compared to the sr-71 like it was some kind of weird standard of portables....

oh the earlier days...

sad part is I don't think the sound quality has risen that much higher since those days, just a change of opamps, change of battery types, and of course the smaller package....
then again G.I. Joe and Hot Wheels cars have not changed all that much from that time also....damn toy markets...

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieg9198 /img/forum/go_quote.gif One question, would appreciate it if Edwood can answer it. Amp only, which one has better detail, soundstage, and seperation?? The Pico or the predator. I'm asking you since you mentioned you like electronica

The Pico has better detail, soundstage, and separation, but that's comparing them with the USB DAC, as I have not compared them analog input only.


-Ed

 

[abitdeef]

After reading every post in this enjoyable thread, I have decided to go with the pico. It seems they both sound fantastic, but the pico bronze colour (or clear+ black, haven't decided) looks hot! I have one silly question as I have never used a usb dac. How do I hook it up to my desktop, just a mini usb cable ? And do I need anything else??

I am probably the only person on head-fi that is buying an amp on looks

, but I am sure it will be a big improvement over a stock d2 and classic.

 

[Filburt]

Hmm...it looks like I forgot to post my impressions from a little micro-meet with both of them...

The most marked thing I noticed was that the Predator seemed to exhibit some distortion or crosstalk in the lower region of the audio band. The audible effect of this was that, on some of my jazz music for instance, the piano and bass would sort of merge together at times; I really don't know how else to describe that. I remember mentioning this to the two other people with me, but I can't recall if they noticed it as well.

The Predator did sound pretty decent though, at least at first, but after switching between the two for a while the differences became rather obvious. I found that the Pico had more soundstage, substantially more detail, was clearer, more impactful, and the instrument separation was substantially higher. As just amps, I'd have to give the nod to the Pico there as well. It was mostly the same story as before, although I think I noticed the lower band issues a bit less with the external source than comparing dacs, and the degree of difference varied with the music I was playing.

Overall, I could see how people are enjoying either of these but, I felt, the Pico was the better value overall and stood up considerably better to desktop-type sources than the Predator.

Headphones I tried with them in the comparison: K701, AD2000, W5000, K271, CP630

 

[jamato8]

After listening to the Predator and comparing it not to the Pico, as I don't have one, but to many other amps, I have never heard a merging of any frequency range when it was not intended. I have heard very good depth and width to the soundstage, when recorded this way. It does a great job in driving anything in my inventory and works well as either a USB dac or as an amp when I use my Monica II dac. Distortion? Never have heard any unless it was on the recording and then it is heard by anything else that I have used in the way of amps.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by micaela /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just posted my thoughts on the Pred. & Pico in the loaner program thread. I want to thank ASR again for the chance to hear both of these amps! I haven't had much experience at comparing gear - since I pretty much have only heard what I"ve bought -- but hopefully my attempts at describing what I heard will be helpful. I spent a lot of my listening time comparing DAC sections with my upgraded MicroDAC & my DA100.

I'm not convinced that predator is fully broken in. Mine at 300 hours sounded nothing like it did at 50 hours, and at 732 hours it sounds different than it did at 300 hours. When I first got the Predator, I PM'd jamato8 because I was worried that my new Predator sounded worse than my iBasso P2 and Tomahawk. He said it will keep changing and improving past 600 hours back then, and he was right. While I can't compare it to the P2 which died, it is miles ahead of my Tomahawk for sound now - so much so that I am finally prepared to sell the Tomahawk when I said I would never do that

Jamato8's Predator took 750-1000 hours for the cap to fully burn-in, and he is now posting (after 1000) hours that it is less likely to suffer clipping at high volumes than before (mine can go to max volume at low gain, and will clip towards 3-4pm on medium gain.

 

[Filburt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamato8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif After listening to the Predator and comparing it not to the Pico, as I don't have one, but to many other amps, I have never heard a merging of any frequency range when it was not intended. I have heard very good depth and width to the soundstage, when recorded this way. It does a great job in driving anything in my inventory and works well as either a USB dac or as an amp when I use my Monica II dac. Distortion? Never have heard any unless it was on the recording and then it is heard by anything else that I have used in the way of amps.

Hmm...I really don't know what to tell you; I checked it repeatedly. I also switched over to the Pico and the CD player I'd brought when trying to evaluate what was going on and both, like most other things I've heard the albums on, didn't exhibit this trait. As for Monica, some concern has been expressed in the DIY field about that design (see: DIYHiFi.org; View topic - What's wrong with Monica? - particularly peufeu and Gordon's [of Wavelength Audio] posts), and afaik they are correct that TDA1545 really isn't suitable for passive I/V.

 

[micaela]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not convinced that predator is fully broken in. Mine at 300 hours sounded nothing like it did at 50 hours, and at 732 hours it sounds different than it did at 300 hours. When I first got the Predator, I PM'd jamato8 because I was worried that my new Predator sounded worse than my iBasso P2 and Tomahawk. He said it will keep changing and improving past 600 hours back then, and he was right. While I can't compare it to the P2 which died, it is miles ahead of my Tomahawk for sound now - so much so that I am finally prepared to sell the Tomahawk when I said I would never do that Jamato8's Predator took 750-1000 hours for the cap to fully burn-in, and he is now posting (after 1000) hours that it is less likely to suffer clipping at high volumes than before (mine can go to max volume at low gain, and will clip towards 3-4pm on medium gain.

Yeah - thats possible. I could only compare what I heard at the time I heard it. I can't say what I think about the lengthy burn in process some describe. I didn't experience a huge change w/the hornet I had - but I do remember some changes as it burned in. So maybe my impressions would be different after the Predator had another 300 or so hours on it -- I can't say.

 

[PFKMan23]

If burn in matters so much, I wonder why Ray doesn't just use a burn in rack for all those caps. The hour figures being tossed around for it are very high. In fact, 750 hours is 31.25 days which is past the trial period for the Predator. I'm sure Ray would love for his customers to hear his amps at their very best, so I think that should be one of the things he should really think about employing for his future orders. That said, I've owned a Hornet in the past and the burn in wasn't nearly as pronounced as what I'm seeing here.

 

[Jaw007]

Jamato8's Predator took 750-1000 hours for the cap to fully burn-in, and he is now posting (after 1000) hours that it is less likely to suffer clipping at high volumes than before.

That seems like a lot of time for it to stabilize.Thats why I ordered a Pico fantastic out of the box,so others report.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFKMan23 /img/forum/go_quote.gif If burn in matters so much, I wonder why Ray doesn't just use a burn in rack for all those caps. The hour figures being tossed around for it are very high. In fact, 750 hours is 31.25 days which is past the trial period for the Predator. I'm sure Ray would love for his customers to hear his amps at their very best, so I think that should be one of the things he should really think about employing for his future orders. That said, I've owned a Hornet in the past and the burn in wasn't nearly as pronounced as what I'm seeing here.

Yeah, I would like it if Ray had a burn-in rack for these big caps. I've heard all my amps change, but the majority of the changes were between 75-200 hours, with the D1 and Penguin Royal changing up to 350-400 hours. I've read about some people needing 800 hours to burn-in their RSA amps, but my Tomahawk sounds the same at 850 hours as it did at 700 hours. The Predator however IS still changing for me, and most recently the change has been a big boost in the bass with an additional layer of transparency.

I've spent the better part of the last month burning-in my predator - I listen to it for couple of hours, and leave it running to check on it the next day. I listened to it for the first time on 12/27/07, and I listened for about 3-5 hours a day for the next 4-5 days, before running it full time 24/7 around the 3rd of Jan. It was around the 8th or 9th that I wrote Jamato8 about my concerns about the sound. I had maybe 150 hours on it by then. I said:

Quote:

I have over 700 hours on the D1 DAC (and 500 on the amp with AD797 LR, AD8397 buffer, LT6234 DAC) and only 150 on the Predator, and the D1 still seems a little more detailed and punchy, vs the predator which is smooth but slightly veiled vs the D1. Also, My old P2 with Headstage USB DAC cable is only slightly behind the Predator in ambience but ahead in detail and bass, and it has 150 hours too. So, you have over 750 hours on the Predator and I'm wondering what it will sound like in the end.

His response:

Quote:

I am afraid, that from my experience, you have many hours to go until you actually hear the Predator. At 300 hours it sounded nothing like it does now, nothing. At 300 hours it was ok but nothing super special. That huge cap is the problem and part of the success of what you will hear. There is such low current that it takes a long time to form a 15,000uf cap. The same is true of Xin's 22,000uf caps. People don't want to believe it, I don't care. It is chemistry and physics. You have a cap with a chemical slurry interacting with electrons. . .

So, since that time I've been keeping a log, and I run the amp continuously, with a couple of 1-2 hours breaks here and there. Each date that I noted below was a day that I listened next - I noted either the time I started to listen, or was done listening. I keep this log in a text file on my computer, which I have it connected to the USB running almost all the time. Most of my comments about what I have heard did not go into the time log, but have gone into Jamato's Predator review thread if it was significant.

1/11/08 10pm 211 hours
1/15/08 10pm 305 hours
1/16/08 10PM 329 hours
1/17/08 10AM 341 hours
1/18/08 10PM 377 hours
1/19/08 10PM 401 hours
1/20/08 10AM 413 hours
1/20/08 10PM 425 hours
1/21/08 4PM 443 hours
1/22/08 12n 463 hours
1/22/08 10pm 473 hours
1/23/08 10AM 485 hours
1.23.08 10PM 497 hours
1/24/08 10pm 521 hours
1/26/08 10PM 569 hours
1/27/08 9PM 591 hours
1/28/08 12mn 618 hours
1/30/08 12mn 666 hours
1/31/08 11am 677 hours
2/1/08 11pm 713 hours
2/2/08 11am 725 hours
2/2/08 8pm 734 hours

At this point the Predator has surpassed all my other portable amps. But, it didn't get there until the past 100 hours or so, which means I'll probably keep this burning-in till past 1,000 hours (11-12 more days).

But, the DAC still isn't quite up to the level of my modded iBasso D1 DAC, which I believe also internally upconverts to 24/96. I still want a PICO for the 24/96 DAC, but I just can't spring for one yet. But, I am close. The refund from my second dead P2 is due soon, and with the $100 from selling my PIMETA, all I need to do is sell the Tomahawk and I have enough for a PICO with DAC. I feel the Meier Headsix is too good with small iPods to sell. And, I sometimes like the extra features on my Lyrix (DAC, bass boost, crossfeed, charging, gain) and SuperMacro 3v3 (impedance, gain, bass boost, crossfeed, auto-timer, charging) too much to sell either of them yet. The SM3v3 actually sounds pretty good with the AD797's that I just put in it, and it was updated by Xin right before Thanksgiving.

The big question is, since I already have the Predator with DAC as well as iBasso D1 and Lyrix with DAC, should I put that money towards the first half of a Benchmark DAC1?

 

[apnk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFKMan23 /img/forum/go_quote.gif If burn in matters so much, I wonder why Ray doesn't just use a burn in rack for all those caps. The hour figures being tossed around for it are very high. In fact, 750 hours is 31.25 days which is past the trial period for the Predator. I'm sure Ray would love for his customers to hear his amps at their very best, so I think that should be one of the things he should really think about employing for his future orders. That said, I've owned a Hornet in the past and the burn in wasn't nearly as pronounced as what I'm seeing here.

So you can't return them back, thats why.

 

[jamato8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filburt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hmm...I really don't know what to tell you; I checked it repeatedly. I also switched over to the Pico and the CD player I'd brought when trying to evaluate what was going on and both, like most other things I've heard the albums on, didn't exhibit this trait. As for Monica, some concern has been expressed in the DIY field about that design (see: DIYHiFi.org; View topic - What's wrong with Monica? - particularly peufeu and Gordon's [of Wavelength Audio] posts), and afaik they are correct that TDA1545 really isn't suitable for passive I/V.

Hey! don't drag Monica into this. You do not want to reap her wrath! :^)

Frankly I have had the Monica long enough as have a few friends I turned onto here, weird, anyway, and I have compared her to my home Ultimate Dac that I don't care what they write. I know what I hear and Monica takes no prisoners. Great liquidity, bass punch, dynamics in all frequency spectrums, transparency and width and depth, all of course If the music is recorded well. Nope, don't care, she sounds good but I have worked on her a bit as she is not stock, no sir, Monica is super charged.

On the Predator, Ray states that if you don't want to wait for the burn-in then don't buy one. That seems simple to me. But in the wait you will be rewarded, at least in my opinion and that of some others. Hey, it's all good.

Great fun, isn't it. What advances these last couple of years have made. On caps, there is a manufacture of a new teflon cap that burns their caps in because it takes so long for them to form. I have read of over 1000 hours and more.

 

[PFKMan23]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamato8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif On the Predator, Ray states that if you don't want to wait for the burn-in then don't buy one. That seems simple to me. But in the wait you will be rewarded, at least in my opinion and that of some others. Hey, it's all good.

While I can understand that position, that is a very precarious position to put the customer in. IMO that's basically nullifying the point of a return policy and unethical.

From what I've read about Ray, that would seem contrary to what he stands for, but I suppose I am mistaken. I still do think that if Ray really wants to show what his amps are truly about, then he should still invest in a burn in rack. They don't seem that expensive to do and if he truly wants people to keep his amps, I would think that he would want them to hear them at their best and use that view to guage whether to return it or not. I know other companies that have them, so it's not some far fetched thing to have.

 

[Drag0n]

Just enjoy the music. I buy my equipment and listen to it.
I know some stuff burns in, but i dont know about that 700 hour stuff though.
Its not going to change so drastically as to sound like a totally different amp though. Its refinements.
I believe a 48 hour burn-in or so is prolly good.