[RikudouGoku]

Pure build quality.

Sound differences with cables is a touchy topic, as it's difficult to A/B cables in the first place. Swapping in a new cable takes time and auditory memory lasts seconds; while you're focusing on trying to get the pins in while swapping, you've probably already forgotten what you heard. That said, I have tried A/B-ing some cables in the past, and I found that I cannot hear differences with cables that I would be willing to chalk up to more than placebo. So while I think I might have heard a difference, the difference is miniscule and that minuscule difference is something that I think most people can agree on. Additionally, price doesn't really have any bearing on which cables sound best - at least to me. Of course, there are instances with extremely sensitive IEMs where a different cable can very slightly alter frequency response, but I am mostly referring to intangible qualities such as better layering, resolution, etc.

Low impedance iems with an uneven impedance curve will have fr changes when you switch cables with different resistances. But yeah, its pure snake oil otherwise...

 

[redrol]

I measure cables having .04ohm resistance, or there abouts. It probably won't ever effect the fr tuning.

 

[RikudouGoku]

I measure cables having .04ohm resistance, or there abouts. It probably won't ever effect the fr tuning.

It will.

 

[H T T]

Low impedance iems with an uneven impedance curve will have fr changes when you switch cables with different resistances. But yeah, its pure snake oil otherwise...

I see that you have measured differences in FR response. But, resistance alone is not the whole picture. A cable is an RLC circuit. You should measure all three values before jumping to any strong conclusions.

 

[Precogvision]

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones.../?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Thought this was interesting. Apparently, KZ has been adding drivers to their IEMs that don't even have any effect (ostensibly for marketing purposes). If this is true, it means that the CRN and DQ6S are basically 1DD IEMs, and it's a powerful example of placebo in this hobby. Listening to the CRN again, I still think its midrange exhibits very "BA timbre" characteristics in that it's highly grainy. But perhaps the grain I hear in this instance is purely attributable to all the recessions and dark nature of the CRN's treble response. It also begs the question of coherency. Is the "incoherency" that we hear wholly attributable to being able to pick up subtle aberrations in frequency response that are the product of different drivers? In other words, are we simply learning to correlate certain frequency response traits with certain driver types? It's probably a bit of everything in my book, but it's still an interesting example of the placebo effect in this hobby.

 

[iDesign]

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones.../?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Thought this was interesting. Apparently, KZ has been adding drivers to their IEMs that don't even have any effect (ostensibly for marketing purposes). If this is true, it means that the CRN and DQ6S are basically 1DD IEMs, and it's a powerful example of placebo in this hobby. Listening to the CRN again, I still think its midrange exhibits very "BA timbre" characteristics in that it's highly grainy. But perhaps the grain I hear in this instance is purely attributable to all the recessions and dark nature of the CRN's treble response. It also begs the question of coherency. Is the "incoherency" that we hear wholly attributable to being able to pick up subtle aberrations in frequency response that are the product of different drivers? In other words, are we simply learning to correlate certain frequency response traits with certain driver types? It's probably a bit of everything in my book, but it's still an interesting example of the placebo effect in this hobby.

In my experience, even 18 drivers can’t help the sound of some monitors…

 

[Samuelueluel]

It also begs the question of coherency. Is the "incoherency" that we hear wholly attributable to being able to pick up subtle aberrations in frequency response that are the product of different drivers? In other words, are we simply learning to correlate certain frequency response traits with certain driver types? It's probably a bit of everything in my book, but it's still an interesting example of the placebo effect in this hobby.

Yes, it's all frequency response (at your eardrum). I think people dislike this idea because they think it makes the hobby boring. But it just means FR is extra interesting. And it doesn't invalidate subjective interpretations of FR in terms of technicalities / audiophile buzzwords.

 

[WAON303]

Not surprised that KZ are using fake drivers for marketing purposes, I always found their EST marketing to be a load of sketchy BS.

It begs the question: Which other companies are faking their drivers? And if the infamous BA timbre is a placebo?

Now I'm kinda scared that the Tea 2 has fake drivers in it because I really want one, I reckon most fake drivers are in cheap stuff but you never know.

Remember when someone found out that the 2019 Andromeda uses Bellsing drivers? Makes you wonder how many of those so-called Knowles drivers are cheap rejects from a bootleg factory in China.

 

[KuroKitsu]

In other words, are we simply learning to correlate certain frequency response traits with certain driver types? It's probably a bit of everything in my book, but it's still an interesting example of the placebo effect in this hobby.

From personal experience and just going through my own reviews, there are terms that I've dropped/simply don't use because

1. I've never observed what was described despite it being widely agreed upon
2. The correlation that I made differed with what is already out there or multiple differing correlations exist.

An example of the former being BA Timbre: This one completely eludes me. I just don't heard what's being described at all even after 5 years of trying gear out.

Coherency being an example of the latter: I always associated this with the tuning of the monitor than the frequencies being handled by drivers.

In my experience, even 18 drivers can’t help the sound of some monitors…

I'm glad I went for the Odin when I had the funds. That 18 driver monitor was super underwhelming.

 

[baskingshark]

Not surprised that KZ are using fake drivers for marketing purposes, I always found their EST marketing to be a load of sketchy BS.

It begs the question: Which other companies are faking their drivers? And if the infamous BA timbre is a placebo?

Now I'm kinda scared that the Tea 2 has fake drivers in it because I really want one, I reckon most fake drivers are in cheap stuff but you never know.

Remember when someone found out that the 2019 Andromeda uses Bellsing drivers? Makes you wonder how many of those so-called Knowles drivers are cheap rejects from a bootleg factory in China.

The same brave guy that opened the KZs above, opened 2 other IEMs and found fake driver claims:

1) CCZ Plume:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-discovery-thread.586909/page-3970#post-16521096
https://m.facebook.com/groups/2386473901653225/permalink/2689516551348957/

2) BGVP DN2:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/bgv...d-new-ba-series.894331/page-327#post-15987274
https://www.facebook.com/groups/audioreviews/permalink/4831960826844190/


Most of these budget companies hyping "EST" drivers are basically using electostats or magnetostats. All a marketing gimmick to stand out from the fierce cut-throat competition.

Even for those claims of novel material drivers eg beryllium, CNT, diamond, LCP etc, there's probably an element of marketing crap too.

The official DUNU folks here on headfi made some interesting comments about the lining/material of drivers: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-discovery-thread.586909/page-2968#post-15288735
"The PVD layer has to be thick enough and the microscopic grain pattern has to be regular enough to confer that pistonic motion beryllium is so famous for. That's why our sub-$100 products (DM-380 and DM-480) are still titanium drivers. Even the TITAN 6, at $139, is only coated on one side."

For all we know, some of these fly by night companies are just sprinkling a few flakes of certain coatings on their drivers instead of uniformly applying it in the prescribed quantities to truly be effective. These materials need to be coated and implented properly to truly make a difference; indeed I've tried some "beryllium" DD IEMs that sound no different, or even worse than a conventional DD.

DUNU says they have difficulty implementing this Beryllium coating in their sub $100 USD gear. And we already see unit variation in macroscopic areas in these budget CHIFI in terms of sound and build, so I am quite doubtful that budget CHIFI sets are a paragon for good QC, when it comes to microscopic application of these novel materials in the proper layering.

In the worst case, maybe some of these companies are not even putting these materials in; someone can open the shells, but who has a spectrometer to measure the material's composition? Beryllium is toxic to process, so how do these companies churn out $30 IEMs containing beryllium drivers without factoring that in the cost?

I won't be surprise if one opens more budget gear, there will be more and more fake claims exposed. Perhaps some of those multi driver behemoths have unsoldered/unconnected BAs even haha.

Anyways, at the end of the day, tuning is more important than all these claims of driver count, driver material, driver brand etc. Like the aforementioned lawsuit between Knowles and Bellsing showed that some TOTL companies are using Bellsings inside their IEMs: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/cxqlje/knowles_files_claim_with_us_trade_commission_to/

 

[WAON303]

I love how DUNU handles their PR, one of the few IEM brands I would trust with not faking their drivers or using cheaper drivers as substitutes, though any company can pull this BS on customers given that no one is going to open an IEM and check the insides. It's always a pleasure hearing Tom talk about the technology DUNU incorporates on their IEMs.

As for BGVP and Plume, not surprised they fake their drivers or are using cheaper ones. It's usually the dodgy or lesser known chi-fi brands that tend to pull this on buyers, though a well known chi-fi company like Moondrop or Fiio could also do the same thing if they wanted, but risk talking a big hit if someone finds out that their IEMs have fake drivers or cheaper ones.

Speaking of Bery DDs, the cheapest IEM I've seen that claims to have beryllium is the Jade Audio EA1 which I doubt has any coating.

 

[o0genesis0o]

Yes, it's all frequency response (at your eardrum). I think people dislike this idea because they think it makes the hobby boring. But it just means FR is extra interesting. And it doesn't invalidate subjective interpretations of FR in terms of technicalities / audiophile buzzwords.

This.

You remind me of the education materials from Final Audio for their MAKE series: frequency response is objective measurement of the transducer themselves, but that's only 1/3 of the equation. Sound quality depends on how that frequency response interact with your ears (HRTF?) and your brain (psychoacoustic) to paint the stereo image in your mind.

 

[o0genesis0o]

It also begs the question of coherency. Is the "incoherency" that we hear wholly attributable to being able to pick up subtle aberrations in frequency response that are the product of different drivers? In other words, are we simply learning to correlate certain frequency response traits with certain driver types? It's probably a bit of everything in my book, but it's still an interesting example of the placebo effect in this hobby.

Perhaps frequency response has more impact on coherency than we thought? For example, Final A4000's mid sound quite disjointed from the bass, so if someone say A4000 is a DD+BA hybrid, I think people will believe. However, we all know it is just due to the unusual tuning of A series.

Another phenomenon I have been thinking about lately is "detail". Say, Final audio believes that if all parts of the frequency response is loud enough with nothing masking over anything, we will hear "details". E5000 does this and it does reveals more details across the spectrum than other IEMs with reduced lower mid and forward upper mid. However, in A/B tests, it's hard to deny that A8000 and Andromeda 2020 reveals more nuances in the music, especially acoustic music. So is it just frequency response, or driver design as well? It seems that there is no clear predictor of "detail" to me.

 

[sgtbilko]

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones.../?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Thought this was interesting. Apparently, KZ has been adding drivers to their IEMs that don't even have any effect (ostensibly for marketing purposes). If this is true, it means that the CRN and DQ6S are basically 1DD IEMs, and it's a powerful example of placebo in this hobby. Listening to the CRN again, I still think its midrange exhibits very "BA timbre" characteristics in that it's highly grainy. But perhaps the grain I hear in this instance is purely attributable to all the recessions and dark nature of the CRN's treble response. It also begs the question of coherency. Is the "incoherency" that we hear wholly attributable to being able to pick up subtle aberrations in frequency response that are the product of different drivers? In other words, are we simply learning to correlate certain frequency response traits with certain driver types? It's probably a bit of everything in my book, but it's still an interesting example of the placebo effect in this hobby.

I've found all these discoveries very interesting to read. And am glad that someone is doing it to expose dodgy marketing. Yet I cannot but think that it's all a bit of a storm in a teacup, as the iems in question have received varying degrees of praise for their sound - and isn't that what matters? I for one have the CCA CRA and am highly impressed how good it sounds - regardless of its low price. All in all, if the community rates an iem, then I'm more inclined to buy it and not worry too much as to what's inside.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[WAON303]

I forgot to mention that someone dissembled one KZ back in 2018:



Seems like some models work as intended. The fakery might only apply to their "tribrid" line of IEMs which was obviously done to push sales with marketing.

The driver rabbit hole gets deeper when DLC drivers are also faked as shown here:

Pretty interesting video BTW, I'd love to see in depth videos that talk about other driver types like pseudo-EST drivers used on "budget" tribrids and Piezodrivers which are usually used on cheaper IEMs as an alternative to electret drivers.