[Androb]

  Ahh a Dual ,my first decent TT I owned, very nice!

 
Cheers! It's my dads but I kinda taken over it for now until I get my own
 

  Very nice looking Dual.  I would be proud of that.

Thanks! Dad got alot of turntables, but I guess this is in best shape. Although need some cable exchange

 

[analogsurviver]

   
Cheers! It's my dads but I kinda taken over it for now until I get my own
 

Thanks! Dad got alot of turntables, but I guess this is in best shape. Although need some cable exchange

I have a VERY ambivalent "relationship" with Duals - they are a strange mix of precision and sloppiness, put together more cheaply than does them good, yet more sucessful models do produce music quite well in the end.
Their forte are the tonearms, particularly the top models qith the Q suffix, meaning they incorporate dynamic damping of the cartridge/tonearm resonance. They also tend towards the necessity to use VERY shallow cartridges, particularly favouring older Ortofon designs (FF/VMS/M series and LM series ) and have quite a range of the custom carts made by Ortofon, Shure and Audio Technica for them. Lack of VTA adjustment in most cases means most normal height phono cartridges will result in too low VTA and this is to be avoided.
 
As you have noticed, audio cabling on Duals was perhaps the most sore thumb; replacing those cables with almost anything new should be an improvement.
 
If you use Tasker C121 ( decent, at about 2 EUR /metre ) or Mogami 3106 ( much better, unless going to yet better, but FAR more costlier Van den Hul variations on the theme ) AND make *some kind of* DIY shielding of the wires from the tonarm itself that are soldered to PCB to which output cable is soldered ), you will end with a low capacitance cable and much reduced hum pick-up - allowing Duals to show their positive side much better than with any cable they left the factory with. That humming/buzzing without shielding for the flying wires is really a deal breaker in better systems.
 
And I wish you never have to learn what Dual Steuerpimpel

 is !

 

[Androb]

 

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

I have a VERY ambivalent "relationship" with Duals - they are a strange mix of precision and sloppiness, put together more cheaply than does them good, yet more sucessful models do produce music quite well in the end.
Their forte are the tonearms, particularly the top models qith the Q suffix, meaning they incorporate dynamic damping of the cartridge/tonearm resonance. They also tend towards the necessity to use VERY shallow cartridges, particularly favouring older Ortofon designs (FF/VMS/M series and LM series ) and have quite a range of the custom carts made by Ortofon, Shure and Audio Technica for them. Lack of VTA adjustment in most cases means most normal height phono cartridges will result in too low VTA and this is to be avoided.
 
As you have noticed, audio cabling on Duals was perhaps the most sore thumb; replacing those cables with almost FAR more costlier Van den Hul variations on the theme ) AND make *some kind of* DIY shielding of the wires from the tonarm itself that are soldered to PCB to which output cable is soldered ), you will end with a low capacitance cable and much reduced hum pick-up - allowing Duals to show their positive side much better than with any cable they left the anything new should be an improvement.
 
If you use Tasker C121 ( decent, at about 2 EUR /metre ) or Mogami 3106 ( much better, unless going to yet better, but
Haha no idea what that is
 
factory with. That humming/buzzing without shielding for the flying wires is really a deal breaker in better systems.

 
And I wish you never have to learn what Dual Steuerpimpel

 is !

Well this is the best turntable I heard (I haven't heard alot in action so can't really compare), but I guess maybe that would change then if I get to hear some more And yea the cables are pretty cheap. No real quality put in there!
 
But otherwise it seems to sound quite solid, it's fun atleast listening to it It has one of the Ortofons you speak of, an older model though. Think dad might have bougt it over 10 years ago +-!

 

[analogsurviver]

  Well this is the best turntable I heard (I haven't heard alot in action so can't really compare), but I guess maybe that would change then if I get to hear some more And yea the cables are pretty cheap. No real quality put in there!
 
But otherwise it seems to sound quite solid, it's fun atleast listening to it It has one of the Ortofons you speak of, an older model though. Think dad might have bougt it over 10 years ago +-!

Duals can be loads of fun, provided they sit on a decent support - their suspension/isolation no match for say AR/Thorens/Linn type of suspended turntable. 
 
If you are satisfied with the sound, I suggest getting the spare stylus for that Ortofon; modern day shallow cartridges are very rare, more recent but discontinued nevertheless are Linn MCs ( Asak, Asaka, Klyde ) - but these are a bit pricey to use on the Duals and are too low compliance for the low mass Dual arms. You will quickly learn all vintage ORIGINAL Ortofon styli command quite high prices nowadays - and as supplies are getting ever drier, so are the prices getting ever higher ... - mostly only found at styli dealers, factory is out of stock for most models.
 
All that said ( and taken care of ), Dual is a decent TT. It has one decisive advantage over almost anything else in this price range; provided that Ortofon cart is adjusted correctly in the arm, it will preserve the vinyl for the future.
I have yet to experience top models ( Q suffix ) in the long run; these are reportedly capable of stunningly good sonics as well.

 

[Androb]

  Duals can be loads of fun, provided they sit on a decent support - their suspension/isolation no match for say AR/Thorens/Linn type of suspended turntable.
 
If you are satisfied with the sound, I suggest getting the spare stylus for that Ortofon; modern day shallow cartridges are very rare, more recent but discontinued nevertheless are Linn MCs ( Asak, Asaka, Klyde ) - but these are a bit pricey to use on the Duals and are too low compliance for the low mass Dual arms. You will quickly learn all vintage ORIGINAL Ortofon styli command quite high prices nowadays - and as supplies are getting ever drier, so are the prices getting ever higher ... - mostly only found at styli dealers, factory is out of stock for most models.
 
All that said ( and taken care of ), Dual is a decent TT. It has one decisive advantage over almost anything else in this price range; provided that Ortofon cart is adjusted correctly in the arm, it will preserve the vinyl for the future.
I have yet to experience top models ( Q suffix ) in the long run; these are reportedly capable of stunningly good sonics as well.

Ah good point. Although I won't do any bigger changes on it, and I think dad has some more cartridges for it so I think he's set for a couple of more years Isn't the needle replaceable btw? Could stack up on those to lower the price instead of getting more cartridges?
 
I am thinking of buying my own TT this or next year tho. Some Pro-ject or Rega I guess!

 

[analogsurviver]

  Ah good point. Although I won't do any bigger changes on it, and I think dad has some more cartridges for it so I think he's set for a couple of more years Isn't the needle replaceable btw? Could stack up on those to lower the price instead of getting more cartridges?
 
I am thinking of buying my own TT this or next year tho. Some Pro-ject or Rega I guess!

Stylus = Needle - and it is replaceable. True that stylus is cheaper than entire cartridge - but that can mean cartridge can become next to worthless if there are no replacement styli left.
 
Ortofon stopped production of these styli ages ago and supply is now definitely limited. Some claim the M20E Super to be the best Ortofon - ever. In the right arm ( low effective mass, good bearings, etc = Dual quality and up ) and into the proper electrical load, it can sound amazing. In absolute terms, not just relative to the price.

 

[Androb]

  Stylus = Needle - and it is replaceable. True that stylus is cheaper than entire cartridge - but that can mean cartridge can become next to worthless if there are no replacement styli left.
 
Ortofon stopped production of these styli ages ago and supply is now definitely limited. Some claim the M20E Super to be the best Ortofon - ever. In the right arm ( low effective mass, good bearings, etc = Dual quality and up ) and into the proper electrical load, it can sound amazing. In absolute terms, not just relative to the price.

Oh haha didn't knew it was called that
 
Ah ok, well dad changed needle once on it I think, not sure if he have any more tho.

 

[platoo168]

  Generally, I am not fond of the rim weights, but this design once for a change makes some sense - it is acrylic or some similar material ? It is the nicest variation on the theme I have seen so far.
 
Still, I prefer vacuum to flatten my LPs. After I first experienced with Versa Dynamics tables, I knew one day I will have to get some vacuum suction device. It uses air pressure to press your record against the platter, flattening it in the process. Not with a couple of kg of force for the rim/clamp, but approx 250 kg due to vacuum and atmospheric pressure difference !
 
The most easily available is Audio Technica AT666EX  http://www.soundscapehifi.com/used-at-stabilizer-001.htm Here YT vid for 665BX which is basically the same thing, but with less clutter and more comfort http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eijU5LjvjNA
 
Here my second S/H sample that arrived yesterday, but got demaged at the rim during transport due to insufficient padding :
 
 

 

 

The box to the left of the TT is AT 661  vacuum pump . Upper close up showing vacuum valve closed, lower one open ( release ) 
 

Suction valve, where the hose is attached
 

...and what I will have to "live (un)happily ever after" with - because it is next to impossible to get people to pack as per instructions...
 
Rule # 1 for shipping : regardless what are you shipping, pack it so that it will securely survive fall from the 1 meter height - from any possible angle.
If you stiill wonder why you MUST do it even if you declared it as fragile, stamped "This side up", etc - enjoy watching :
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9JRmgo77D4
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq6u8JU6v4E
 
DHL are certainly not the only ones to blame, but they menaged to demage a perfectly good 30 years old AT666EX this time. It is still functional, yet at every look of the turning platter I will get reminded ...

 i have one of this audio-technica stabliser but with out the vacuum  i dont know how do i get it to work.  try to connect to other vacuum but does not suck the record.  already tried to rotate the valve with no success..  can you help give some pointer,  do you have manual?
 
thx

 

[analogsurviver]

   i have one of this audio-technica stabliser but with out the vacuum  i dont know how do i get it to work.  try to connect to other vacuum but does not suck the record.  already tried to rotate the valve with no success..  can you help give some pointer,  do you have manual?
 
thx

It is a !"#$%&/()=?* ( a curse more juicy than anything possible in English ) to get it right. It has to be completely disassembled, cleaned and reassembled with the proper care to eliminate all the leaks possible - which is Mission ( Next to ) Impossible. The two valves can not be interchanged, you have to work with extreme caution - damage any rubber seal or part(s) in the valve(s) proper - game over. 
 
I will be uploading the manual and "service manual cross-section cutout" to the vinyl engine library shortly. However, the greatest Catch 22 is the rubber treatment/sealant/whatever chemical agent that allows the ruber seal rings in the contact with the vinyl to hold the vacuum for the required time - one side of the LP. I have seen AT 666 treated like that for sale on the German ebay - at approx EUR 300. I can tell you, as steep as this might sound at the first glance - IT WAS CHEAP !!! The seller claims vacuum holds longer than 10 (or was it 15 ? ) HOURS after his magic whatever. That means that refurbished/treated AT 666 holds vacuum MUCH better than when it was new - let alone the typical sample you can get off ebay. Ask yourself one simple question - would you be selling it if it performed flawlessly as intended ?
 
It is one hell of a lot of work, time and trial and error methods involved - and I can understand that seller to refuse to disclose what agent he uses in order to get AT 666 up and running better than new.
 
AT 666 and the surface of the side of  record that comes in contact to it HAS TO BE KEPT SCRUPOLOUSLY CLEAN - or it will embed the dust particles into vinyl permanently, leading to increased noise and in worst case, even skipping. It is best used on MASSIVE platters - and even then, it will still generally add some metallic coploration to the sound. For some reason, it does work rather well with the Technics SL 1200 - with the VTA adjustment ALLLLL the way up ...
 
I have not given up completely on the AT 666 because of all of the above - yet. But it is inconvinient and hard to use as hell. And I have yet to find that rubber treatment that would seal well and not be leaving residue on surface of the vinyl ...

 

[longbowbbs]

I met a new friend at Axpona.....
 

 

[Silent One]

Is that MF?

 

[longbowbbs]

  Is that MF?

Yes....He was a very funny and gracious host. I attended his Turntable setup clinic.

 

[Silent One]

Originally Posted by longbowbbs /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
 
Yes....He was a very funny and gracious host. I attended his Turntable setup clinic.

I always wanted to attend one of his.

 

[analogsurviver]

  I always wanted to attend one of his.

I watched his DVDs on the subject. Nothing new to me.

 

[longbowbbs]

 

  I always wanted to attend one of his.

I watched his DVDs on the subject. Nothing new to me.

It was as much performance as information. There were probably 100 people in the room. It was classroom theater style seating and he was on the stage. They had a very high end video camera and Operator filming and projecting close ups on the big screen. Imagine the stylus tip 5 feet high! Very cool.