[oarnura]

Break your writing into paragraphs.. It is very hard to read your posts.

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Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Firstly, oarnura, I have no idea why you keep bringing up speakers and subwoofers. My whole point in my post about authoring music and them auditioning the music through speakers and even car stereos was to point out that music is not authored to sound good on analytical equipment.

Prove this to me...Show me typical mastering equipment that isn't accurate or neutral but "musical".

I really want you to prove to me that mastering equipment is "musical".
Show me the word musical used to describe any pro equipment.

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There's a big difference between monitoring and actually authoring music for home or personal listening. I do my fair bit of audio authoring as well as video editing.

Really what is it? I don't think you have aclue as to what people use to mix and master audio. I gaurantee you that it isn't "musical" speakers or tube gear.

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There's phones which I use for monitoring but they are just for that, monitoring. I do not use them for music enjoyment (though I do use my Ultrasones for that purpose on occasions, usually I just grab my HD-595s or Grados 125s (yes, another for the list which I forgot after all this "look at all my pretty toys" discussion, a bit silly). What I expect from headphones and earphones is drastically different from what I expect from my speakers and sub.

Why?


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The only similarity I do ask for is that my earphones sound as close to my headphones as possible. In this regard, BAs are sadly lacking and for the longest time because of all the Head-Fi hype and the enthusiast market trend, BAs have been regarded as the best.

Why are you hanging out here if it is all hype? Go start your own non-hype filled forums...

Adios.

I really can't read your posts unless you split them into paragraphs. I give up.

BAs sound superior to dynamics end of story....A properly implemented BA based setup can out do any Dynamic. There are some well implemented dynamics for sure but very few offer the clarity and resolution of even the cheapest BA. You can count on less than 1 hand the number of dynamics that offer decent clarity and resolution.

 

[MaloS]

By the way, for everyone who is about to add more subjectivity arguments involving 'individual perception and blah blah blah' - try to give a good explanation to this:

When music started, people slowly created a variety of tonal harmonies. Western and Eastern (main two) differed substantially - but eventually everyone succumbed to using the Western 12-tone harmony. Some still maintain other methods for authenticity, and there is atonal music practiced for experimental purposes - but yet...Western harmony dominates. Beyond belief. And it has been shown (mathematically) that other alternate haromnies that were developed are actually just 12-tone harmony with quarter notes added. Fun.

 

[VoLTaG3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosoupforyou /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oy, Voltage, what headphones are you getting next? Something with a totally different sound signature or similar to the 530's?

What I'm planning on getting is the Denon AH-D7000. I'm not too familiar with it's sound signature but I know it has one of the best bass of any headphone out now. I want to read a detailed review of a fully burned in Sennheiser HD800 and Grado PS1000 and how they compare before I consider dropping my cash on any of those ultra high end headphones.

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif In the end - I think you are trying to blame alot of things on the underlying technology - but the problem you are complaining about has more to do with the tuning of the frequency response of the headphone. On the other hand - your opponents in this argument are arguing that dynamics fail to provide certain characteristics that do happen to be the inherent flaw of dynamic drivers (clarity/resolution that results from drivers that have lightning-fast transient response...very very few dynamic headphone drivers do that).

Bingo this is what I have been trying to get across. My main issue with the first post was BAs are clinical and Dynamics are "Musical" is a the most ludicrous thing I have heard.

Thanks for distilling that down nicely.

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Your argument is similar to someone saying "BA's cannot go higher than 16 khz". BA's are a newer thing on the audiophile market, and many people have not yet heard more recent models of earphones that cross that barrier. They also have not heard BA earphones that solve the issue of having visceral deep bass, and many think of the way etymotic sounds when talking about BA's - which is also not representative of the driver, just representative of psychology of one company.

x2.

 

[MaloS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oarnura /img/forum/go_quote.gif Really what is it? I don't think you have aclue as to what people use to mix and master audio. I gaurantee you that it isn't "musical" speakers or tube gear.

You might want to hold it there. Best production of classical and jazz is done using tubed recording equipment, and amplification is also tubed. Good pentode amplifier competes with solid state in accuracy, plus you get to avoid odd-order distortion.

But yes - on the case of popular definition of 'musical', mastering gear is not musical. On the other hand if you want 'musical' defined as delivering most direct experience of recorded music (most similar to artists playing in front of you), top studio gear prevails - well mastered record will be resolved almost completely and sound phenomenal with a good flat 20-20 set up.

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by i_don't_know /img/forum/go_quote.gif And thus the accuracy vs. musicality argument must be revisited once more. I believe they have nothing to do with each other. I'm not talking about a certain frequency being boosted (I realize I was using bass as a main focal point in my last post, but that's simply because musicality is usually most easily recognized in the lower frequencies since they tend to have more impact than the higher frequencies in a real life situation). I'm talking about the feeling caused by the driver moving more air around. Even treble notes have impact (but it doesn't really "hit", you can just "feel" the notes).

I hear better transient response on my PFE across the frequency range. The Turbines a dynamic driver based IEM suffers in this regards the highs are just there there is no quick transient response.

When a bass string track is played the bass overwhelms the string plucks you can't hear the detail at all. How can missing information be musical if the instrument is supposed to be string and the string pluck is the part of the sound?






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Also, here's how I like to think of it: IEMs are known to have an intimate sound overall, yes? An intimate sound puts you closer to the music, yes?

Earphones and headphones have an exaggerated and unnatural sound I never feel close to the music like on a good stereo.


Quote:

Then I feel it's perfectly fine for an IEM to reproduce the sound of an instrument as if it's being played 3 feet away (impact and feeling-wise, not stage or space-wise). And I'm sure you'd agree that even a guitar has a certain amount of impact and/or feeling at that distance. I forgot to mention that my experience with guitar isn't nearly limited to just holding it and playing it (thought I wouldn't have to add that in. Sorry, I'm tired). Of course, if something inside your ears was supposed to sound like full-size speakers, it would be a different story.

No IEM can mimic the impact of a guitar or any instrument in real space.



Quote:

Just for the record, I prefer the sound of a BA driver because I'd rather hear the recording itself than the recording + added musical texture (unless it's one of those weird days when I just feel like feeling the music, then it's the other way around). I'm just trying to point out that musicality and accuracy are not to be confused or combined with one another. The recording is the recording. The musicality of the way in which the recording is presented to the listener is a whole different thing altogether.

How is an IEM adding texture that is not there in the recording musical? It is distortion plain and simple...How does the IEM know what to add to make it musical?

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif You might want to hold it there. Best production of classical and jazz is done using tubed recording equipment, and amplification is also tubed. Good pentode amplifier competes with solid state in accuracy, plus you get to avoid odd-order distortion.

I stand corrected..

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But yes - on the case of popular definition of 'musical', mastering gear is not musical. On the other hand if you want 'musical' defined as delivering most direct experience of recorded music (most similar to artists playing in front of you), top studio gear prevails - well mastered record will be resolved almost completely and sound phenomenal with a good flat 20-20 set up.

I couldn't agree more. You and I think alike...

 

[dookiex]

Ok oarnura, for the sake of argument since you insist on it. You keep bringing up comparisons with the Turbines. These stand at the bottom of the barrel of good sounding dynamics (they aren't bad, but they are definitely not the best, close to mid-range but not quite there yet). You then chose to throw challenges at me insisting that I have no basis to compare dynamics to BAs. From the looks of things you have quite a limited experience with dynamic earphones. When I bought up that mixes are listened on headphones, earphones, non-studio monitors, and even car stereos was that they want to have a sense of how the music sounds on those systems. Plain and simple. You can argue with me all you want, it's quite tiresome as I continuously try to point things out but you are certainly set on believing that analytical ='s musical. I have two choices here, trust your skewed view or trust my own ears as well as what I've learned from one of my sound engineer friends (whom I may add has worked on the Kiss albums and has the Platinum records on his wall to show for it). Thank you very much.

 

[MaloS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok oarnura, for the sake of argument since you insist on it. You keep bringing up comparisons with the Turbines. These stand at the bottom of the barrel of good sounding dynamics (they aren't bad, but they are definitely not the best, close to mid-range but not quite there yet). You then chose to throw challenges at me insisting that I have no basis to compare dynamics to BAs. From the looks of things you have quite a limited experience with dynamic earphones. When I bought up that mixes are listened on headphones, earphones, non-studio monitors, and even car stereos was that they want to have a sense of how the music sounds on those systems. Plain and simple. You can argue with me all you want, it's quite tiresome as I continuously try to point things out but you are certainly set on believing that analytical ='s musical. I have two choices here, trust your skewed view or trust my own ears as well as what I've learned from one of my sound engineer friends (whom I may add has worked on the Kiss albums and has the Platinum records on his wall to show for it). Thank you very much.

Aahaha, kiss albums. Worst sounding records EVER. =) Ofcourse his opinion counts after that one.

Also, you completely don't understand us. You just don't. Shush, go away now.

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok oarnura, for the sake of argument since you insist on it. You keep bringing up comparisons with the Turbines.These stand at the bottom of the barrel of good sounding dynamics (they aren't bad, but they are definitely not the best, close to mid-range but not quite there yet).

Unlike your baseless accusation that I go by Head-fi hype...I actually go by what I hear.


Quote:

You then chose to throw challenges at me insisting that I have no basis to compare dynamics to BAs. From the looks of things you have quite a limited experience with dynamic earphones.

I agree because there are very few good ones. The ones I have heard don't inspire confidence for me to try new ones.

Even with that said my IE 7 arrive on Wednesday. Would that be a good enough IEM for you price wise? They are $300 retail...Are those High end enough for you?

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When I bought up that mixes are listened on headphones, earphones, non-studio monitors, and even car stereos was that they want to have a sense of how the music sounds on those systems.

Yes. That has nothing to do with "musical" vs "accuracy". Pros prefer neutral and accurate sounding gear for mixing an mastering. If it sounds good on a neutral and accurate revealing setup it will usually translate to most consumer gear.


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Plain and simple. You can argue with me all you want, it's quite tiresome as I continuously try to point things out but you are certainly set on believing that analytical ='s musical.

Your insisting that accuracy is not musical is ridiculous...

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I have two choices here, trust your skewed view or trust my own ears as well as what I've learned from one of my sound engineer friends (whom I may add has worked on the Kiss albums and has the Platinum records on his wall to show for it). Thank you very much.

You can continue to believe what your believe but if you believe Accuracy, Neutrality is anything but musical .. I have bad news for you about santa claus and the tooth fairy!

 

[VoLTaG3]

[size=large]WHAT HAS MY THREAD TURNED INTO?!!?!? PEOPLE ARGUING OVER THE INTERNET ABOUT TECHNOLOGY THEY HAVEN'T EVEN CREATED OR KNOW MUCH OF......I KIND OF LIKE IT.......

[/size]

 

[cn11]

Dang, my eardrums are blown out now, and I can't listen to any of my 'phones anymore! Thannnnkkksssssssss.......

 

[dookiex]

Malos, you're right, I totally do not understand oarnura. For some reason, I don't think that listening to music is the same as monitoring a mix which oarnura certainly feels is the same thing. By the way, I love Kiss

In what ways does the Kiss albums sound horrible apart from you preference in genres? Sigh. I'll say this from my own experience, only time I want accuracy and neutrality during a mix is to check for the recording of each track and being able to adjust my levels. In other words, I'm using it to make sure that my recordings are good and not flawed. The final listen of how good a mix sounds is still done on standard listening equipment. Here lies the issue:

Monitoring equipment is used differently than equipment used to listen to music. They also have different characteristics. If you can't comprehend that and insist on them being the same and interchangeable, then I can't help you there. Good luck with that.

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Malos, you're right, I totally do not understand oarnura.

He said US. So you obviously don't understand Malos either.

Quote:

For some reason, I don't think that listening to music is the same as monitoring a mix which oarnura certainly feels is the same thing.

Why you think mastering doesn't use "Normal" speakers is puzzling?

gear


The PMC IB1.. similar to the PMC IB2s is the best speaker I have heard to date. Not that I have heard the rest of the PMC line..

Amsterdam Mastering
Georgetown Masters - Technology

http://www.soundandmore.pl/engNowa/pdf/fullinfo.pdf

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/maste...-twin-6be.html

Looks like "normal" gear to me.. There are more examples.

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1621

I don't see car stereos listed in any of them.

One studio site mentioned using Sony and AKG headphones for monitoring. Want to bet they aren't using Ex700s?

http://www.masterlab.de/index2.php?lang=en&n=equipment#
They use a Grado RS1 for monitoring.

http://www.calyx-mastering.com/en/eq...mastering.html
Use Sennheiser HD650 for monitoring.


Quote:

Monitoring equipment is used differently than equipment used to listen to music. They also have different characteristics. If you can't comprehend that and insist on them being the same and interchangeable, then I can't help you there. Good luck with that.

More nonsense... I have links up there.

PMC Ltd

Consumer version of the IB2s (s for studio)
PMC Ltd

Same thing with the rest of the line:
PMC Ltd

Let's see the difference between a Hd650 and the IE8:
http://www.headphone.com/technical/p...are+Headphones


Here is a discussion about mastering and mixing with headphones:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/maste...eadphones.html
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-...es-mixing.html

 

[s1rrah]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoLTaG3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif [size=large]WHAT HAS MY THREAD TURNED INTO?!!?!? PEOPLE ARGUING OVER THE INTERNET ABOUT TECHNOLOGY THEY HAVEN'T EVEN CREATED OR KNOW MUCH OF......I KIND OF LIKE IT....... [/size]

So true.