[QQQ]

 

[-=Germania=-]

Voltag3,

I have an esw9 that has been modified and recabled by myself.
I then also have teh RSA P-51 Mustang.

Guess What?
I still generally prefer my FreQShow with custom cable.
The ESW9 has the benefit of me being able to hear the outside world and share my music with others. Plus, they make very nice earmuffs for Chicago Winters.

If you bought the ESW9's you may also be dissapointed. It is better to my ears than the IEM's that cost the same amount, but it really isn't above a K701 et al. in terms of SQ.
If you want a pair of at home headphones with similar sonics to the 530's, get the Denon D2000.

Cheers!

 

[vkvedam]

It's strange VoLTaG3, you've created so many threads over SE530s, sort of uncountable. I am not denying the fact they are indeed one of the best all round IEMs you could rely on, but if you're looking for the other extremity it has got to be one of the top tier ones as you mentioned.

 

[MaloS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoLTaG3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif High end headphones usually sound better than any IEM because it has far more expansive soundstage and more robust bass. Isn't the Audio Technica ATH-ESW9A the highest quality you can get from a portable easily driven headphone?

And what makes you believe that a small over-ear headphone is definitely going to run over what IEM's are capable of? Your complaints about W3/IE8 fit ESW9 even more so (ESW10jpn is supposed to be better in that regard) and ESW9 benefits little from an amp.

If you want a high-end portable headphone - that's Ultrasone Edition 8 (try reading the OTHER forum, where they talk about headphones instead of hyping every single new toy). It is still questionable if it will be a better performer than one of the top tier customs.

If you are under impression that a small over-ear headphone will give you far larger soundstage - give up. It may give you some gains because the drivers are outside your head now, but you will give up enormous degree of precision and positioning.

And I am really sorry that you don't know how to read through hype. I guess that's a skill we shouldn't expect of someone who is so hyped about his little toy, he completely loses any reasoning prowess that may have been in his brain before.

 

[thechungster]

Quote:

Originally Posted by -=Germania=- /img/forum/go_quote.gif Voltag3, I have an esw9 that has been modified and recabled by myself. I then also have teh RSA P-51 Mustang. Guess What? I still generally prefer my FreQShow with custom cable. The ESW9 has the benefit of me being able to hear the outside world and share my music with others. Plus, they make very nice earmuffs for Chicago Winters. If you bought the ESW9's you may also be dissapointed. It is better to my ears than the IEM's that cost the same amount, but it really isn't above a K701 et al. in terms of SQ. If you want a pair of at home headphones with similar sonics to the 530's, get the Denon D2000. Cheers!

Oh damn hmm. I was actually considering purchasing some ATH ESW9s. :/

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif The same hype you so speak of and which probably persuaded you to pick up the SE530s were on Head-Fi as well. I like the SE530s but there's still a noticeable clynicalness to their sound which I find the case to be with most BA sets. This is usually the issue with the bass response with BA sets. The bass is there and audible but it's just not as musical as dynamics.

What does "Musical" mean? If a transducer is reproducing an instrument accurately it is by definition musical!

I wouldn't label distortion "Musical". The Dyanmics I have heard so far have been slow in transient response.
The Turbines fail the bass resonance test on my test CD. Even the cheapest BA based phones fare a lot better.


Quote:

Soundstage also takes a hit with BA sets.

Again accuracy over a hugely distorted sound stage...wide but compressed. That has been my experience with the dynamic phones I have heard so far.

I'll get the IE7 this week and see how well it really does in transient response and sound stage. The NE-7m and Turbines have been disappointments in soundstage and imaging for me.

 

[dookiex]

Are you serious oarnura? LoL. Musicality is far from being just being frequency accurate. When they record music in the studio, the last thing they want to mix with is with BA earphones. They mix using studio monitors and then they fine tune after auditioning with a variety of speakers and sometimes even car stereos to get a sense of how the recording comes off on the common systems. BAs are far from having a similar sound to speakers and headphones. Dynamic earphones are represent the intended listening much closer than most BAs. When I had my EX700s it really hit home how much better a good pair of dynamics can be compared to BAs including SE530s. Here's the problem with BAs, the ones I've heard (and many which I own or have owned) make a sacrifice. Either they are very accurate while being quite clynical sounding (not musical) or they try to make up for the clynical sound by bringing up the mids and the lows which effectively creates a veil (SE530s fair better). The EX700s treads closer to being a fuller set as it has the slight emphasis on the mids while also keeping a controlled and visceral low end as well as a good high end detail (though the highs are nowhere near sparkly like Etys or SAs). Big difference here oarnura. Long story short, from the GOOD dynamics I've listened to they resemble the sound of full sized phones moreso than BAs have ever done. Are you trying to convince me that full sized phones are distorted? Ha ha.

In regards to your comment with the soundstage, I'm using the EX700s as the target for my findings and they are in no way compressed or congested. Also, find me a pair of BAs that doesn't give the impression that the sound is coming out from the inside of your head. Positioning is a different category and dynamics do this quite well but again, you need to be using the right dynamics to draw your conclusions. I chose the EX700s as my test target due to the fact that they can be had for around $230 yet they rival $500 BAs while doing quite a few things better than BAs (soundstaging and a better representation of what the bass is supposed to sound and feel like). That says a lot.

Also note, you're using lower end NE-7m's and Turbines as your target for testing? Isn't this a truly flawed test? The EX700s only real issue is that they have a slight sibilance so if the recording has sibilant parts you will seriously hear it but it's not as bad as say a pair of Etys which feels like pins poking at your ears with the higher registers.

 

[kobayashi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoLTaG3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif High end headphones usually sound better than any IEM because it has far more expansive soundstage and more robust bass.

Only compared to the SE530. If you had IE8s, you wouldn't be craving more bass and a more expansive soundstage. LOL

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Are you serious oarnura? LoL. Musicality is far from being just being frequency accurate. When they record music in the studio, the last thing they want to mix with is with BA earphones. They mix using studio monitors and then they fine tune after auditioning with a variety of speakers and sometimes even car stereos to get a sense of how the recording comes off on the common systems.

Most don't use any headphones period. BA or dynamic doesn't matter.

Riddle me this? Why is it that a vast majority of IEM manufacturers that sell in the pro market use BA or multiple BA. Where as consumer oriented brands and models use dynamic?

Example, 95% of shure's line is BA except the consumer oriented SE-115.
UE uses BAs in every product line targeted at Pro musicians.
Westone...Phonak (Pro hearing aid)... Etymotics.. I can keep going on.

You argument doesn't hold water. Pros think BAs sound accurate and meets what they need. Consumers like some extra "boom" in their bass which they mistakenly think sounds "musical".

Consumers think lots of boomy bass is good bass and musical. Most have never heard tight accurate bass.


Quote:

BAs are far from having a similar sound to speakers and headphones. Dynamic earphones are represent the intended listening much closer than most BAs.

I have speakers from a professional monitoring company and a very accurate sub and the accuracy and speed of my home stereo is closely matched by BA based phones. My system is also calibrated for room response.

The dynamic phones "visceral" bass sounds like a slow sub with average transient response.

Quote:

When I had my EX700s it really hit home how much better a good pair of dynamics can be compared to BAs including SE530s. Here's the problem with BAs, the ones I've heard (and many which I own or have owned) make a sacrifice. Either they are very accurate while being quite clynical sounding (not musical) or they try to make up for the clynical sound by bringing up the mids and the lows which effectively creates a veil (SE530s fair better).

It all depends on what you are used to. If you haven't heard a properly calibrated accurate system you will tend to think a typical consumer setup is more "musical" and use that as a comparison for your earphones.

You may listen to a accurate system and still prefer a consumer grade system.

A product has a veil is the bass is more prominent and mids and lows take a back seat. It sounds like a blanket was thrown on the speaker to muffle the highs and mids hence "veil".

All the dynamics I have heard sound fairly veiled to a certain extent.

Quote:

Are you trying to convince me that full sized phones are distorted? Ha ha.

All headphones are unnatural/unmusical because sounds in nature don't come from tiny point sources on or in your ear.

Natural sound is heard and felt. When a bass string is plucked or a drum is hit hard you feel it. You will never get that from any headphone.

Quote:

In regards to your comment with the soundstage, I'm using the EX700s as the target for my findings and they are in no way compressed or congested.

You are using one Dynamic and BA based phone to generalize what the entire technology type sounds like? Seriously!

Quote:

Also, find me a pair of BAs that doesn't give the impression that the sound is coming out from the inside of your head.

Find me one headphone that can image like a good pair of speakers. Every single head phone sounds like the music is in your head to a certain extent. You will never replicate the sound of a band playing in a room with the band 8 feet in front of your from a headphone.

Even if the sound is in your head it should sound like a band is playing in a room. Not as if the band is around your head.


Quote:

Positioning is a different category and dynamics do this quite well but again, you need to be using the right dynamics to draw your conclusions. I chose the EX700s as my test target due to the fact that they can be had for around $230 yet they rival $500 BAs while doing quite a few things better than BAs (soundstaging and a better representation of what the bass is supposed to sound and feel like). That says a lot.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I haven't seen the EX700 get a lot of time on head-fi. I haven't heard them myself.
So I have not other source of information to go on. But the pros don't use the EX700 for monitoring or stage use. I would love to see
some information on that.

No headphone can create what bass is supposed to feel like. The thing is centimeters from you ear. How does the rest of your body get the sound waves?

What is your reference stereo/speaker/Sub for bass ?

Quote:

Also note, you're using lower end NE-7m's and Turbines as your target for testing? Isn't this a truly flawed test?

Nope, the Trubines are $150. The NE-7m are $50. My BA basedIEMs are in the $69-$150 price range (my price of acquisition).

My tests are far more broad because I am using multiple data points vs your using two examples.

I am going to get the IE7 this week a very highly regarded dynamic IEM. If it blow me away I will write about it. If it has the same flaws I perceive with most dynamics I will write about it too.


Quote:

The EX700s only real issue is that they have a slight sibilance so if the recording has sibilant parts you will seriously hear it but it's not as bad as say a pair of Etys which feels like pins poking at your ears with the higher registers.

If a product reproduces what is there in the recording it isn't a problem. It is a problem if it doesn't reproduce what is in the recording.

 

[Lil' Knight]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif ESW9As are a bit overpriced for what you get to tell you the truth.

To tell you the truth, it's worth every buck I spent.

 

[VoLTaG3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Knight /img/forum/go_quote.gif To tell you the truth, it's worth every buck I spent.

Is it an improvement over the Shure SE530s in sound quality only? Is it worth carrying the extra bulk over a simple plug in and go Shure SE530?

 

[-=Germania=-]

MaloS,

You definately can increase soundstage, that's what the mod in my sig is all about in addition to some nice treble energy. I have altered it a bit since the thread, but the premis is the same (use smaller pieces for the second layer).

I would say that they are worth the money! I haven't heard the ESW10, so no comment there.

Though I will say that the best investment in audio that I ever made was into Custom IEM's. They have been the most usefull little buggers. No, they aren't my best sounding set of headphones, but the fact that they are tiny and block annoyingness makes them that much more apppealing. Plus, inserting and taking out become a no brainer and mine just slip into place. Also, non of that pressure on your ear drums like the tips and other stuff and messing around with driver placement.

 

[dookiex]

oarnura, I have just two things to comment about your response to mines. You posed the question of why manufacturers have leaned towards BA, this is because at the time there really were no dynamic earphones that were done correctly. They were made for the consumer market, correct, then came companies like Etymotic that popularized BA earphones thus the trend became BA earphones. Now, BAs were never made for music reproduction and their frequency responses shows this. Now, what advantages do BAs have? Size. They can be miniscule thus they can be made to properly create a noise isolating seal. Thus professional musicians would use them since they doubled as earplugs as well as being accurate in the sense that they can follow the music but this is not the same kind of music that the audience hears. Second thing I want to comment about your reply, you've basically tried to say that I have limited experience with earphones and headphones. This is untrue, I'm just quite lazy to list my inventory in my profile

Since you apparently want to go into all that alpha male I have this and that, here I go:

Owned:
EX700
SA6
ER4s (forgot if the P were the lower impedance ones or not, the ones I had needed an amp)
ER-6i's
SE500/530
Q-Jays
UE Triple.fi 5 Pros
UE 10 Pros (didn't own them but borrowed a pair for a month or so)
Klipsch Custom 2 and Custom 3 (borrowed the Custome 3s for two weeks)

Own:
Senns 595s and 650s
Ultrasone 750s, 2500s
Sony V6
RE-1s

Now, if you can tell by my laundry list, I've gotten rid of most of my earphones. Reason being that they all had major noticeable flaws and the fact of the matter was the the EX700s sounded excellent compared to all of the other pairs. I've sold those as well since I'm planning to pick up a pair of IE8s hoping that they have a similar characteristic to the EX700s minus the slight sibilance issue. Yes, from actual practice, the BAs, regardless of how good they sounded, couldn't compare to the big picture when using the EX700s. The problem was that there was really not happy compromise, either the BAs had warmth but at the expense of adding a bit of veiling/congestion or they were quite trasnparent but at the expense of warmth. Now, you seem to be very inclined in accuracy over actual music which is your listening style but trying to make a bold claim that accuracy IS music is a bit ludicrous. Accuracy with the BAs are great when let's say you're keeping tabs on your vocals during a live performance or your guitars but as a whole, to actually enjoy music, a clynical sound is not a good fit for music enjoyment. It's just like how I would generally not use my V6 for musical enjoyment as they are quite clynical but when I need to do some audio editing, I would reach for them.

Note: My laundry list is probably incomplete as I have more equipment in storage that I haven't touched in ages. If you really want to go into this, I can go and dig the unwanted children out of storage but maybe not, laziness reins

Note Note: I've had this BA vs dynamics discussion a few months back. Folks don't seem to recognize that BA was a trend that started not because of superiority but because it was really a trend. Now Sennheiser has come out with their IE series which appears to be quite excellent and thus restarting the popularity of dynamics (what I consider to be dynamic done RIGHT). Another issue with why at the time BAs were better than most if not all dynamics at the time was because care went into making the BA phones right as they were made for the enthusiast markets, the major manufacturers of consumer (mass market) phones obviously aimed more at volume of sales as opposed to quality of product. Again, with the IE8s we're now seeing that they can definitely be as good and accurate as BAs AND have a better soundstage along with musical bass as opposed to accurate bass notes (this does not mean that musical bass is not accurate, this just means that bass can be accurate as well as musical at the same time, which BAs sadly have not been able to achieve without too much compromise).

 

[oarnura]

Please break you posts into paragraphs it is very hard to follow what you are saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif oarnura, I have just two things to comment about your response to mines. You posed the question of why manufacturers have leaned towards BA, this is because at the time there really were no dynamic earphones that were done correctly. They were made for the consumer market, correct, then came companies like Etymotic that popularized BA earphones thus the trend became BA earphones.

This doesn't follow..

Quote:

Now, BAs were never made for music reproduction and their frequency responses shows this.

What? You can't be serious?

Quote:

Now, what advantages do BAs have? Size.

BAs have more clarity and precision than dynamics is is very obvious by just listening.

Quote:

They can be miniscule thus they can be made to properly create a noise isolating seal. Thus professional musicians would use them since they doubled as earplugs as well as being accurate in the sense that they can follow the music but this is not the same kind of music that the audience hears.

Why would they need 3-4 driver IEMs if they are just ear plugs?


Quote:

Second thing I want to comment about your reply, you've basically tried to say that I have limited experience with earphones and headphones. This is untrue, I'm just quite lazy to list my inventory in my profile Since you apparently want to go into all that alpha male I have this and that, here I go: Owned: EX700 SA6 ER4s (forgot if the P were the lower impedance ones or not, the ones I had needed an amp) ER-6i's SE500/530 Q-Jays

You only mentioned EX700 and SE530 and only kept mentioning them constantly. So I assumed you only had those.

Quote:

UE Triple.fi 5 Pros

I don't think there is such an IEM.

Quote:

UE 10 Pros (didn't own them but borrowed a pair for a month or so)

You borrowed custom IEMs? How did they fit?


Quote:

Now, if you can tell by my laundry list, I've gotten rid of most of my earphones. Reason being that they all had major noticeable flaws and the fact of the matter was the the EX700s sounded excellent compared to all of the other pairs. I've sold those as well since I'm planning to pick up a pair of IE8s hoping that they have a similar characteristic to the EX700s minus the slight sibilance issue.

What is your non headphone reference? What speaker /sub system have you formed your "Bass should sound like this" impression?


Quote:

Yes, from actual practice, the BAs, regardless of how good they sounded, couldn't compare to the big picture when using the EX700s. Now, you seem to be very inclined in accuracy over actual music which is your listening style but trying to make a bold claim that accuracy IS music is a bit ludicrous.

No your claim is ludicrous and the vast majority the industry and people on head-fi seem to agree with me.

A muscial instrument is musical by definition. An accurate system is musical by definition if it produces the instrument as it was recorded.
If a musical instrument sounds harsh that is its nature. Anything that makes it "musical" , which means easy to listen to is not music because it distorted that instruments true nature.

Over the years I have come to understand "musical" is term used to describe colored fun sound usually meaning lots of bass with is fairly slow so it sounds bloated. A fast accurate bass response that mimics the characteristics of the instrument itself is considered lean and analytical.

Why "musical" adovcates like something that sounds like it is in an live untreated room is beyond me.


Again what is your non headphone reference? What was the reference why which you judge the IEMs you listen to?


Quote:

Accuracy with the BAs are great when let's say you're keeping tabs on your vocals during a live performance or your guitars but as a whole, to actually enjoy music, a clynical sound is not a good fit for music enjoyment. It's just like how I would generally not use my V6 for musical enjoyment as they are quite clynical but when I need to do some audio editing, I would reach for them.

Again that's your opinion not shared by the vast majority. Sorry!

Clinical is a term people that prefer colored poorly defined sound use for accurate systems. People that want quality audio call what you prefer colored.

Most people raised on really bad sounding home systems and think that boomy slow bass is what bass is supposed to sound like.

For example, Bose is colored and not clinical... why is it not considered the most musical system?
Quote:

Note: My laundry list is probably incomplete as I have more equipment in storage that I haven't touched in ages. If you really want to go into this, I can go and dig the unwanted children out of storage but maybe not, laziness reins

I want to know what your reference for good bass is.. I don't really care to compare heaphone lists.

Quote:

Note Note: I've had this BA vs dynamics discussion a few months back. Folks don't seem to recognize that BA was a trend that started not because of superiority but because it was really a trend. Now Sennheiser has come out with their IE series which appears to be quite excellent and thus restarting the popularity of dynamics (what I consider to be dynamic done RIGHT).

I get my IE7 series and I hope you are right... we will have to wait and see if the trend to Dynamics continues. I bet not...


Quote:

Another issue with why at the time BAs were better than most if not all dynamics at the time was because care went into making the BA phones right as they were made for the enthusiast markets, the major manufacturers of consumer (mass market) phones obviously aimed more at volume of sales as opposed to quality of product.

EH! Most pro IEMs were BA. If dyanmics were truly a better technology as you posit. Why wouldn't companies invest in making them better for the pro market. It would be cheaper to develop one good dynamic driver than enclosures to house 3 BAs and crossover. Crossover design for IEMs probably are more expensive R&D wise than drive design.

Explain to me what materal science developement lead to the sudden magic material that makes it possible to make Dyanmics RIGHT.


Quote:

Again, with the IE8s we're now seeing that they can definitely be as good and accurate as BAs AND have a better soundstage along with musical bass as opposed to accurate bass notes (this does not mean that musical bass is not accurate, this just means that bass can be accurate as well as musical at the same time, which BAs sadly have not been able to achieve without too much compromise).

A lot of people still prefer the Westone 3 to the IE8. Some even prefer the single BA PFE to the IE7.

You keep saying that BAs haven't been able to achieve accurate musical bass. I contend you have never heard accurate musical bass. Musical bass is accurate bass. What I get from dyanmics isn't musical bass it is one-note bass with lack of definition. If you like woolly bloated bass that's fine but it isn't musical by and stretch of the imagination.

 

[dookiex]

Sorry, UE ones were 10s but not the custom ones. Too lazy to look up the proper naming conventions. ANYWAYS, sorry, Head-Fi has a LOT of inaccuracies as a LOT of whats on Head-Fi ARE hype (thus explaining why I have gone through so much equipment in the past few years). As to speakers, I have a set of Klipsch RF-83 (reason why I went for the customs in the first place) and a Klipsch RSW-10d subwoofer.

By the way, I've made this analogy in another post in regards to accuracy and musicality: it's like a book, technically it's accurate if you can pronounce each word along with all the hyphens, periods, commas, etc. but reading without emotion and character takes away from the book.

Yes, you are OBVIOUSLY going for what the MAJORITY says on Head-Fi, but you fail to mention that SO MANY people are holding on to Etymotic ER4s claiming that those are great sounding with excellent bass. The ER4s are clynical, yes, very accurate, but FAR from being musical. Congratulations on subscribing to the majority idea on Head-Fi, it's the equivalent of mass market consumerism except for the enthusiast market.

As to your argument using Bose, Bose is garbage. When passages start getting complicated, it can't resolve all the parts of the music. Clear and simple. Bose is not only colored but it just can NOT handle things that are complicated. Apparently you don't understand this thus think that the only thing wrong with Bose is the coloration. Just from your Bose analogy alone makes me question your thinking. Yes you are entitled to your opinions but apparently your opinions goes as far as a lot of what you read (aka hype) on Head-Fi and not from practice, I'm presuming this since you don't seem to understand the difference of resolution and coloration.