[MacedonianHero]

I just took the LCD-4s for a spin all afternoon in a private listening room at a local hifi shop I frequent. I really didn't feel them and was quite disappointed given the hype and that I'm a previous LCD owner. They had a constrained soundstage, lacked bass texture and detail, and in the end only seemed to have decent vocals. Even that wasn't impressive, it just seemed to be the best thing they could do. I tried them with 2 different amps and DACs, then A/B/C'd them with HiFiMAN HEXv1s and HEKv1s. Once getting the HEKv1s on I felt I'd thankfully returned to "high end". The LCD-4s really underwhelmed me and I comfortably place the SEM1s above them in all categories except maybe vocals?

This isn't a direct quip at you, to each their own, but I just found it a funny reference to "if you want to hear real quality, check out XYZ headphone". As far as detailed, fast, and textured bass goes, I'm still a major fan of the original HiFiMAN HE-6 4-screw. The Pioneers are nice to me overall, but they don't have HE-6 level bass, but nor do the HE-6s have Pioneer lever soundstage or organic instrument imaging~

I was also unclear from your posts as to whether you tried the SEM1s in a real listening environment or tested them out against any other headphones in a shootout that wasn't at a show? I'm not a naysayer of graphs, but most the people I find shooting down the SEM1s reference the Innerfidelity graphs (which I'm not disputing the accuracy of) and haven't gotten legitimate head-time outside of a show floor.

Hey I'm glad you found something you like! I certainly would disagree with your assessments, but this is a subjective hobby (regardless of the objective measurements ). I have tried the Pioneers on two separate occasions and they sounded to me like they measured (so not very good), but hey, you like them and it's your $$$ and in the end your opinion is what matters.

I just want to clarify that the LCD-4s are VERY hard to drive properly and an amp that can output minimum 2 W is needed. I found that the Chord DAVE as a standalone wasn't ideal for them next to amps like the Cavalli Liquid Gold or HeadAmp GS-X Mk2 (both can output north of 5W).

YMMV of course.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Its an absolute shame that so called audiophiles refer to graphs to justify purchase of a headphone.
Headphone preferences are purely subjective at best and references to charts and graphs in my experience is unorganic and counterproductive per the foregoing.
To each its own i hasten to add however.
Enjoy...the pioneer sem 1 is a wonderful reference headphone by any standard.

Audiophiles are looking for "high fidelity"...so fidelity to the source is what so many audiophiles are after. And as the late but great Richard Feynman said:

""The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."

Measurements keep us honest. Now I'm not saying one should only use measurements, but when used in conjunction with careful listening, they can indeed keep us honest. Plus the distortion numbers say a lot about the performance of the drivers to deliver a pure and clean sound...and as mentioned Pioneers are quite poor here and I would call them "reference level" as by the strictest point of view, they are simply not that (just like Grado headphones, but those I can have enjoyed them from time to time). But if you're coming from a purely personal experience, then whatever floats your boat is just fine.

But if someone else were to take your "subjective" comments, they won't translate so well to someone else's ears, that's where measurements help as they remove a lot of that subjectivity with objective data. Another good reason to use measurements.

If you read Stereophile or Absolute Sound, you'll see that they always incorporate both in their assessments and I'm a big fan of that for the reasons stated.

 

[Karlg]

Audiophiles are looking for "high fidelity"...so fidelity to the source is what so many audiophiles are after. And as the late but great Richard Feynman said:

""The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."

Measurements keep us honest. Now I'm not saying one should only use measurements, but when used in conjunction with careful listening, they can indeed keep us honest. Plus the distortion numbers say a lot about the performance of the drivers to deliver a pure and clean sound...and as mentioned Pioneers are quite poor here and I would call them "reference level" as by the strictest point of view, they are simply not that (just like Grado headphones, but those I can have enjoyed them from time to time). But if you're coming from a purely personal experience, then whatever floats your boat is just fine.

But if someone else were to take your "subjective" comments, they won't translate so well to someone else's ears, that's where measurements help as they remove a lot of that subjectivity with objective data. Another good reason to use measurements.

If you read Stereophile or Absolute Sound, you'll see that they always incorporate both in their assessments and I'm a big fan of that for the reasons stated.

Thats kind of funny as absolute sound listed the TOTL Grados as one of the absolute best headphones in the world with the right setup ofcourse!!
Going by charts and graph, thats a contradiction isnt it.
However, objectively, it all a matter of personal preference and taste.
There's no perfect headphone...NONE.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Thats kind of funny as absolute sound listed the TOTL Grados as one of the absolute best headphones in the world with the right setup ofcourse!!
Going by charts and graph, thats a contradiction isnt it.
However, objectively, it all a matter of personal preference and taste.
There's no perfect headphone...NONE.

I don't think anyone ever said there was a perfect headphone. But it is accurate to say that some are closer to perfect than others.

 

[Karlg]

I don't think anyone ever said there was a perfect headphone. But it is accurate to say that some are closer to perfect than others.

smile, it's an assertion sir!

 

[MacedonianHero]

smile, it's an assertion sir!

Actually, it is demonstrable.

I can link you to the objective data. Remember we are talking about accuracy to the recording here.

What you prefer is entirely on your own and not very transferable to others.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Double Post

 

[Karlg]

Actually, it is demonstrable.

I can link you to the objective data. Remember we are talking about accuracy to the recording here.

What you prefer is entirely on your own and not very transferable to others.

smile...comment refers to my assertion. Smiles again

 

[MacedonianHero]

smile...comment refers to my assertion. Smiles again

Sorry, I don't follow? I thought we were talking about accuracy...if you're talking about personal preferences, then as I said, whatever floats your boat.

 

[mrtim6]

I appreciate the work Inner fidelity have done, however I find that they can be somewhat selective and contradictory at times. Case in point the Denon D7000 was on the wall of fame a few years back, yet when the TH900 arrived on the scene around 2012 Tyle refused to review it after it measured poorly. Yet the general consensus in the headfi community was the TH900 were an improvement over the Denon series in bass control and detail retrievel. MC I know you owned the TH900s for a while and remember you enjoying them. I waited months for an Innerfidelity review and nothing happened. Also Tyle uses his methodology to measure headphones which may be accurate however there are many different types of equipment to measure headphones, who knows if Tyle's is the best way? I'm not suggesting his set up is poor I'm just suggesting even measurement methodology could be considered subjective.

I personally prefer the SEM1 over the TH900. The Pioneer really sounds more balanced and less V shaped. Although I found IMO with decent amping the so called 'TH900 sucked out mids' was minimal. I also prefer the SEM1 over the HD800 as to my ears the SEM1 is more musically satisfiying on an emotional level. The HD800 is a technological tour de force yet it fails to tug my heart strings like the SEM1 & TH900 do.

I think one area that doesn't get discussed too often when evaluating headphones is the type of music used to listen to said H/P and was it an excellent recording with decent dynamic range (D/R) or some nasty brick walled remaster? The online 'Dynamic Range Database' scale indicates 1-7 as bad D/R, 8-13 transition and 14-20 as good D/R for and Album. Good example here is the Talking Heads Album naked - the original 1988 cd upon release had a very good D/R tracks ranging from 13 - 16 average d/r of 14 for the album as a whole, the nasty pasty 2009 remaster D/R ranged from 7-10 average d/r of 8 for the album as a whole. If you listened to the remaster with one headphone and then listened to the original cd with a different headphone the second headphone might sound more natural than the first headphone - yet the reality is the recording is vastly different in terms of fidelity.

I usually cringe when I hear an album has been remastered, unless it's by someone who has a decent reputation like Steve Wilson of Porcupine Tree.

 

[up late]

i think tyll strives to take accurate, repeatable measurements. his latest efforts involving the utopia and lcd-4 are examples of that. so to suggest that his measurement methodology could be considered subjective is a stretch imo.

it is possible that he isn't eliminating every variable however, and he is aware of that. but if you treat his fr measurements as indicative rather than absolute, then you'll find that they tend to align with fr measurements from other sources. that said, comparing measurements from different sources isn't recommended.

 

[Oregonian]

Anyone else driving these out of a vintage amp? My Pioneer Spec 1pre/Spec2 amp combo is what I'm using fed by a CD player usually. Said it before - the bass these present is as good as my HE-6 - which I never ever thought possible. Probably better actually - doesn't take as much oomph to get them to sing.

 

[Karlg]

Anyone else driving these out of a vintage amp? My Pioneer Spec 1pre/Spec2 amp combo is what I'm using fed by a CD player usually. Said it before - the bass these present is as good as my HE-6 - which I never ever thought possible. Probably better actually - doesn't take as much oomph to get them to sing.

Amazin assertion because the hifiman is a planar and supposedly better per data.
Consequently, i state hereby that datas sometimes are just guidelines and sonic references actually play a more integral role in the final analysis.
The pioneer sem 1 is simply breathtaking from my experience especially balanced.

 

[up late]

your aural perception and personal preference usually exert the most influence over your response to a headphone's performance regardless of what the measurements show, but that doesn't make the measurements any less valid

 

[Karlg]

Just did an A/B comparison of the utopia and the pioneer with same source with wywire platinum cable balanced.
I couldn't believe my hears literally!!
Thought i had wax in my ears actually.
I haven't recently had enough time to thoroughly go through my headphones in respect to Evaluation.
Folks, the pioneer is wider, separates better, bass response is akin to the th900, thought i was in a concert hall listening to David Sanborn actually.
If you an audiophile out there and you think the utopia is simply the best open back headphones in the world currently, i beg of you, enlighten/advice me per the foregoing.
Being an audiophile for over 40yrs and i really don't get the utopia hype.
Don't get me wrong now, theyre very good, amazing please convince me.
I wait impatiently.
Respectfully,
Karlg!!!!!