[Ray Samuels]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yup, that one shocked me too. Since when do you need speaker wire for an adapter to sound good? Why wouldn't all the wire need to be 18AWG then and not just the adapter? And what about all the little board traces that are doing the exact same thing? And a 4-wire 18AWG adapter should be fun to try to tuck into your pocket.

Among all who post in this thread about my comments regarding the wire, I just take it with a grain of salt & let it slide, but when I read your post, Mr. DIYer, I get shocked for your attack & for not believing in a wire quality making a difference in sound reproduction, weather being on the bright side or leaning toward the dark. If it is that way why don't we all go to Radio Shack & wire our systems with that craps. This will be my last post in this thread.
Ray Samuels

 

[grawk]

Wire quality and wire thickness aren't the same thing. At the power levels we're talking about for headphone amps, 18ga wire isn't required in the slightest.

On top of that, his argument was two-fold. One, why would the thickness only matter in the adapter, and the absurdity of a 4 wire 18ga adapter in a supposedly portable device.

Finally, there was no attack. Disagreement on issues is allowed, and setting up a strawman argument to avoid discussing the issues points out the weakness of your argument.

 

[The Monkey]

This is all pretty simple. I'm not sure why people don't get it, I make the following points generally, not with respect to Ray's claim specifically. (Ray is a trusted, experienced and accomplished MOT, so I would assume he has a reasonable basis for his claim about the wire gauge.)

When a manufacturer advertises its products, it is responsible for all reasonable interpretations of the claims made in those advertisements. Claims need to be based upon a reasonable basis for their assertion.

What constitutes a reasonable basis/substantiation varies from industry to industry, but "I say it; therefore it is so," is not, in my experience, a reasonable basis for claim substantiation. Advertisers resort all the time to language such as "may" or "can" or "we believe" and such language can help those advertisers argue that they are simply stating opinions. However, those are not magic words and they do not sanitize a communication about the capabilities or shortcomings of a product that would otherwise require substantiation.

The bottom line is that the high-end audio industry is rife with unsubstantiated claims of technical excellence and/or superiority. That's not good for the consumer. Accordingly, asking for the backup for an MOT's claim is not only reasonable; it is entirely appropriate. Part of this community's (past?) greatness owes to the fact that its members are not satisfied with the status quo, unlike some other audio-related sites and/or publications. This community tends to try to cut through the marketing hype and hocus pocus. Or at least it used to.

 

[n_maher]

Ray,

I most certainly believe in quality wire but hold no belief that wire size beyond the reasonable, makes any difference. I have never understood why Jena and others have insisted that headphone cables must be made to look like garden hoses to sound good. And all that I said was that your suggestion surprised me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Samuels /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please if you make an adapter your self make sure you use a good quality wire with 18 AWG. Using thinner wire might not give you all the bottom end that the amp is capable of.

If you had said "please use quality wire" I don't think anyone would have given it a second glance. If I misunderstood something about what you were trying to say please correct me. As a manufacturer of quality goods I hold you to a higher standard and I have higher expectations, not because I believe you are inferior.

 

[naamanf]

Why not just take the scientific method and calculate what the actual loss is for a given gauge wire would be versus the other?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Samuels /img/forum/go_quote.gif If it is that way why don't we all go to Radio Shack & wire our systems with that craps. This will be my last post in this thread. Ray Samuels

I'll eat my underwear with ketchup if you could tell the difference between "that craps" and any other wire of your choice.

 

[M3NTAL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by naamanf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'll eat my underwear with ketchup if you could tell the difference between "that craps" and any other wire of your choice.

And I'd pay to see that!

 

[WalkGood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Samuels /img/forum/go_quote.gif Among all who post in this thread about my comments regarding the wire, I just take it with a grain of salt & let it slide …

I for one am surprised if this is; showing care about what your customers or potential customers believe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Samuels /img/forum/go_quote.gif … but when I read your post, Mr. DIYer, I get shocked for your attack & for not believing in a wire quality making a difference in sound reproduction, weather being on the bright side or leaning toward the dark. If it is that way why don't we all go to Radio Shack & wire our systems with that craps. This will be my last post in this thread. Ray Samuels

I honestly don’t see where you have been attacked o_O and if some don’t believe in the general wire myth or what you believe in, it’s their prerogative. I for one don’t believe that wire size beyond a reasonable size is going to make a difference, especially in a portable, just look to the cable size that companies like JH Audio or UE use. BTW in a pinch I have bought some things from Radio Shack and have no issue with what I’ve bought. Again thanks for the enlightenment …

 

[AudioDwebe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blubliss /img/forum/go_quote.gif Enough said. Then why don't you listen to the more senior who have more knowledge. I personally have recently done more scientific tests to challenge my own audiophile myths/beliefs. Guess what, the cable BS is just that, BS. In a controlled test a $200 thin cable beat a $3600 thick cable in all areas. I applaud the community for trying to put a stop to this type of viral BS marketing spouted by many in the field.

Coming off a bit strong, are we not? Because you've been a member here for a while makes you knowledgeable? Pah-leeze!

Just because "you" didn't find a difference in "your" test doesn't mean differences in cable sound quality does not exist. I heard a difference going from a Nordost Flatline Gold to a shotgun of Analysis Plus Silver Ovals. I then heard a difference going from the Silver Ovals to a shotgun run of the Acoustic Zen Satoris.

How 'bout IC's? They can make a difference, too. Going from a lower end Analysis Plus to the Nordost SPM Reference all around created a difference.

Before you can hear any improvements, no matter how subtle, in a change of cabling, you've first got to have a very revealing system. Short of that, the subtle differences will go unnoticed.

 

[AudioDwebe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif I will only add, since I've posed my questions and had my say, that personal attacks in this thread or any other will not be tolerated. I don't see any here so far. What I do see are calm, well-reasoned explanations of why users may have taken issue with claims made by a manufacturer.

Did you even read the post in question?

Ray used the word "might". Since when did "might" become definitive?

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioDwebe /img/forum/go_quote.gif Did you even read the post in question? Ray used the word "might". Since when did "might" become definitive?

Since I quoted the post I think it's a fair assumption I read it. But let's go there again since you seem to be a fan of picking things apart.

Here's what Ray said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Samuels /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please if you make an adaptor your self make sure you use a good quality wire with 18 AWG. Using thinner wire might not give you all the bottom end that the amp is capable of.

So he starts out with a definitive statement, i.e. use good wire, use 18AWG. Then he provides an "out" for those that may or may not perceive a difference. But the initial implication is clear, if you want "all the bottom end" you'll do as he says. I'm pretty sure I'm reading that correctly and have asked Ray to clarify if I'm not.

I think people jump way to quickly to the assumption that any time any one questions what a manufacturer has said that it's attack on their character or disrespectful. That's simply not the case. And to paraphrase another poster, if we can't ask questions about various statements what the heck are we doing here?

 

[n_maher]

MODERATOR CLARIFICATION:

1. My posts in this thread are just that, mine, not a representation of what Head-Fi, its owner or other moderators think.
2. The discussion of double-blind testing techniques is, per the rules, prohibited.

 

[AudioDwebe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Since I quoted the post I think it's a fair assumption I read it. But let's go there again since you seem to be a fan of picking things apart. Here's what Ray said: So he starts out with a definitive statement, i.e. use good wire, use 18AWG. Then he provides an "out" for those that may or may not perceive a difference. But the initial implication is clear, if you want "all the bottom end" you'll do as he says. I'm pretty sure I'm reading that correctly and have asked Ray to clarify if I'm not. I think people jump way to quickly to the assumption that any time any one questions what a manufacturer has said that it's attack on their character or disrespectful. That's simply not the case. And to paraphrase another poster, if we can't ask questions about various statements what the heck are we doing here?

Those two sentences you quoted, in essence, says: If you don't use a quality cable of 18 gauges or more, you might not get all the bass the amp is capable of delivering.

Which basically means you might, but you might not.

I combined both sentences to obtain the meaning. By your own definition, it appears your "picking things apart", no?

 

[gp_hebert]

Just a quick reminder for those that are trying to start cable debates to derail the thread, the debate here is not about whether cables can make a difference or not, it's about Ray's post on the relation between wire gauge and bass, which many of us find suspect.

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioDwebe /img/forum/go_quote.gif I combined both sentences to obtain the meaning. By your own definition, it appears your "picking things apart", no?

So clearly we read things differently and maybe neither of us is right or wrong, but when you make a pretty sarcastic statement that you already know is not true you do your point a disservice. Speak of points, the point here is that at least to a fairly large number of us it appeared as if Ray was making a very specific recommendation about wire size. He somewhat confirmed that in his reply to me (although he only mentioned quality, not size) and certainly hasn't clarified it further since. Since he stated he did not wish to discuss it further in this thread I PM'd him and haven't gotten a reply. Maybe he'll do that later?

 

[tyrion]

The emphasis in Ray's sentence as written was not on the word "might". The emphasis was to make sure you use 18 awg wire because if you don't, you are not going to get the bottom the amp is capable of. AudioDwebe, you can read Ray's statements any way you want but I believe you are wrong in your interpretation.