[dannyandelyse]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif IMHO the Power Supply and Output section are much more critical than the Digital section. The thing that drives down the prices of older high end players and why buying new or at least newer makes sense is that players have moving parts. Moving parts break, and since CD drive mechanisms change every couple of years getting an older player repaired is problematic. I would absolutely take something like a Sonic Frontiers SFD-2 Mk2 (From mid 90's) over a new cheap DAC. The problem is that DAC's like that don't often see the light of day.

Hey Ethan,

How about a Cambridge 840C digtal out into a D2D which reclocks the data and then sends it thru an I2Se cable into a Sonic Frontiers SFD2 mark3 with further updated special edition Caps and power supply ugrades, tubes, etc. from Connexion,s Chris Johnson the original designer.

The SFD2 Mark3 is a 24/96 dac and KILLS the mark2!!!!! Have yet to hear anything better this combo.
Hope all is well
Dan

 

[atothex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyandelyse /img/forum/go_quote.gif The SFD2 Mark3 is a 24/96 dac and KILLS the mark2!!!!! Have yet to hear anything better this combo. Hope all is well Dan

Good stuff, but the mark 3 seems even rarer than the 2 previous models. Maybe you have one that you're willing to sell?

 

[b17m4p]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlpaul /img/forum/go_quote.gif I dunno... it seems logical to me. Take photocopying as an example. It doesn't matter what kind of paper, ink, DPI resolution the copier has, if the source is grainy, its going to turn out grainy. Period. End of story.

I don't think anecdotal evidence is useful in this discussion. Furthermore I don't think anybody is really advocating using a 'crappy' source as some posters above alluded to and make arguments against. For me personally this question relates to whether or not to update from my DAC1 to something like the Bryston BDA-1 or something like that.

If I have say $4k (or any non fixed amount thats not so huge that price of components is no longer really an issue) to spend on upgrading my system over the course of the next year I think I would achieve the best performance*time (some sort of integral of a performance function over time I guess

) by updating the source last. Furthermore I think the end result would also be the best this way. Maybe this is because I mostly am concerned with computer audio and especially in that area things like USB input where poorly implemented gimicks at first and then now are getting implemented better. So since some of the technology is newer I think its price on the used and retail market drops off much quicker than the prices of the headphones or amps I might look at upgrading to.

I guess since some of you are only concerned with redbook players, etc. you may not see such a discrepancy between the sources and amps/headphones in terms of price drops over time.

 

[ironmine]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlpaul /img/forum/go_quote.gif I dunno... it seems logical to me. Take photocopying as an example. It doesn't matter what kind of paper, ink, DPI resolution the copier has, if the source is grainy, its going to turn out grainy. Period. End of story.

When you print out a picture on a printer, it doesn't matter which cable you use to connect the printer to your computer, does it?

If a DAC has a buffer which accumulates all the incoming ones and zeros and thus kills the jitter, then the source does not matter. I have such DAC - Stello DA100 and I tried all kinds of digital sources, cheap and expensive, I tried cables, even USB, the sound is the identical. Absolutely no difference. I sold my CD-player NAD, I couldn't justify keeping it any more.

I want to say to everyone who "hears" such difference - please stop fooling yourselves and others.

 

[rlpaul]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ironmine /img/forum/go_quote.gif When you print out a picture on a printer, it doesn't matter which cable you use to connect the printer to your computer, does it?

No, but that's why its called an analogy

Just because certain aspects don't compare, doesn't mean the same principle doesn't apply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ironmine /img/forum/go_quote.gif If a DAC has a buffer which accumulates all the incoming ones and zeros and thus kills the jitter, then the source does not matter. I have such DAC - Stello DA100 and I tried all kinds of digital sources, cheap and expensive, I tried cables, even USB, the sound is the identical. Absolutely no difference. I sold my CD-player NAD, I couldn't justify keeping it any more.

I'm not advocating that USB cables make a difference or not - I don't even use USB in my PC as source setup to begin with. I'm just trying to illustrate what the OP posted in a different manner - source matters. I wasn't referring to digital sources in particular, but rather sources in general.

If your source (lets say a DAC) has shortcomings on how it portrays audio, upgrading your headphones/speakers is simply going to accurately output those shortcomings.

 

[b17m4p]

Thats obviously true and I'm pretty sure nobody is arguing against it. The issue is whether the curve of diminishing returns converges at a relatively lower price point then for other components - which some people think it does. A side issue we're discussing is weather digital sources improve fast enough to modify your buying strategies you may use for other components.

 

[ironmine]

Quote:

Originally Posted by b17m4p /img/forum/go_quote.gif The issue is whether the curve of diminishing returns converges at a relatively lower price point then for other components - which some people think it does.

If you ask me, I think the most important component is speakers, then a DAC-containing source, then an amplifier. In my opinion, a "source", which does not contain a DAC, but merely supplies ones and zeros, is not important at all - under 2 conditions: (1) it must supply them without noticeable jitter; or (2) the DAC must have a buffer to eliminate the jitter.

 

[b17m4p]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ironmine /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you ask me, I think the most important component is speakers, then a DAC-containing source, then an amplifier. In my opinion, a "source", which does not contain a DAC, but merely supplies ones and zeros, is not important at all - under 2 conditions: (1) it must supply them without noticeable jitter; or (2) the DAC must have a buffer to eliminate the jitter.

Yeah but whats the point of separating the DAC from the source conceptually. To me the DAC is part of a source discussion. I mostly use a computer as a transport - so I basically have never really looked into any other type of transport. Using a digital library is so intertwined with how I enjoy music that going to other media is not an option.

 

[dannyandelyse]

Quote:

Originally Posted by atothex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Good stuff, but the mark 3 seems even rarer than the 2 previous models. Maybe you have one that you're willing to sell?

Yes, I have one

but it would cost more than a share of Berkshire stock

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ironmine /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have such DAC - Stello DA100 and I tried all kinds of digital sources, cheap and expensive, I tried cables, even USB, the sound is the identical. Absolutely no difference. I sold my CD-player NAD, I couldn't justify keeping it any more. I want to say to everyone who "hears" such difference - please stop fooling yourselves and others.

How about listing for us "all kinds of digital sources" you tried and compared? Hopefully, they weren't along the lines of multiple cheap and/or mid-fi DVD players and CD players used as transports.

 

[powertoold]

I love this discussion.

There are people who don't think digital sources matter much but would like to eliminate jitter, which no one can sonically describe. Then, there are people who think sources matter a lot. Finally, there are who don't think digital sources matter much at all.

Audio is tricky business, and most people fall for it

But does it really matter in the end? Ignorance, on both sides of the spectrum, is bliss.

 

[purk]

I'm the source before headphone amp myself, in fact, my R10 never sounded this good until I purchased the Exemplar 5910. I would take the Exemplar 5910 + SP SDS-SE over Meridian G08 + SDS-XLR anyday.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by powertoold /img/forum/go_quote.gif I love this discussion. There are people who don't think digital sources matter much but would like to eliminate jitter, which no one can sonically describe. Then, there are people who think sources matter a lot. Finally, there are who don't think digital sources matter much at all. Audio is tricky business, and most people fall for it But does it really matter in the end? Ignorance, on both sides of the spectrum, is bliss.

I recall Empirical Audio writing about the audible effects of jitter somewhere on their site.

 

[powertoold]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif I recall Empirical Audio writing about the audible effects of jitter somewhere on their site.

Well of course, they make DACs!

 

[Sherwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by purk /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm the source before headphone amp myself, in fact, my R10 never sounded this good until I purchased the Exemplar 5910. I would take the Exemplar 5910 + SP SDS-SE over Meridian G08 + SDS-XLR anyday.

Purk, you are in a whole 'nother stratosphere of high end. Any one of those amps or sources would catapult my rig into another dimension. They're so high up there that it took me a few readings to realize that one rig had the great source and one rig had the great amp. It was like those Spanish readings where you had to figure out what was going on by context clues.