[Audio-Omega]

Your setup is only as good as its weakest component ?

 

[SR-71Panorama]

Its how you cite the source that really matters. The MLA Formatting and Style Guide is an indispensable tool.

 

[piotr z]

>>Uncle Erik

if You think that You buy 1000$ source in 2010 that will beat 5000$ source of 2008 - You're dreaming - the way that You're thinking my source is ancient already and should be beat by 500$ players

- well I bought it this year for still not cheap according to price when new coz I felt that was my bang for a buck !!!! ( it's 6 years old !!!!!!! )

another thing - a lot of people is not able to hear the difference bettwen good and bad sources coz they skimp on cables !!!! ( and that realy kills the performance )

 

[Yikes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Pak /img/forum/go_quote.gif I will throw another wrench into the works- the source matters a lot more in a (good) speaker system than even a very high resolution headphone system /ducks rotten tomato that flies by my head

Agreed! Differences in Sources, Cables and even little tweaks are much more apparent with a quality speaker based system; Hence my much greater interest and investment in my speaker rig.

 

[Yikes]

A ultra high performance quality player will continue to outperform a more modest budget player for many years. The reason for this is that the quality and sophistication of the Digital section is only one small factor in an entire design. The other sections of the player (Power Supply, Output Section) are all much more mature technologies, therefore what constitutes "State of the Art" doesn't change very often. In these sections where the technology is more mature parts quality is why an expensive older player will continue to excel. A cheaper player will never have the quality of Output section and power supply that well designed and built expensive players have.

IMHO the Power Supply and Output section are much more critical than the Digital section.

The thing that drives down the prices of older high end players and why buying new or at least newer makes sense is that players have moving parts. Moving parts break, and since CD drive mechanisms change every couple of years getting an older player repaired is problematic. I would absolutely take something like a Sonic Frontiers SFD-2 Mk2 (From mid 90's) over a new cheap DAC. The problem is that DAC's like that don't often see the light of day.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif A ultra high performance quality player will continue to outperform a more modest budget player for many years. The reason for this is that the quality and sophistication of the Digital section is only one small factor in an entire design. The other sections of the player (Power Supply, Output Section) are all much more mature technologies, therefore what constitutes "State of the Art" doesn't change very often. In these sections where the technology is more mature parts quality is why an expensive older player will continue to excel. A cheaper player will never have the quality of Output section and power supply that well designed and built expensive players have. IMHO the Power Supply and Output section are much more critical than the Digital section.

Well said, and very true!!

Go find a 5-10 year old Wadia player, for example...say an 860 or 861. Give that player a listen, and tell me if it doesn't sound just as good as anything available today for less than $3,000-$4,500 you'd pay for it. I'm sure the same could be said about older high-end players from any one of a number of manufacturers.

The key, as Yikes has pointed out, isn't so much the digital conversion. It's what happens to the signal AFTER that. It's the power supply and the analog output stage where the difference is made. This is why there's such a rousing business in after-market modification of sources...and what for the most part do they modify? Power supply and analog output stage. How many times do you EVER hear of a player mod that switches out the DAC chip?

I was recently reminded of just how much difference a good source can in fact make. I have had my own Wadia 830 unhooked most of the time lately as I await the arrival (soon I hope

) of the digital input board. I hooked it up to my new Fisher 500C (a gift from my father-in-law) and was stunned at how much more involving the music seemed to be. Don't get me wrong...the rest of my stuff is decent. That said, the way I listen these days (mostly computer audio) is more out of convenience than anything. Well, here's to taking the trouble to seek out and make use of a good source - you'll be glad you did.

 

[Yikes]

I'm surprised. Earlier in this thread I made a statement that I truly believe, but I was sure that it would be controversial and people would jump all over it. Not a peep.

Does that mean that people agree with me? or are you all just scared?

So once again, with feeling:

Quote:

All expensive products are not reference caliber, but all reference caliber products are expensive.

FYI I love a good raging debate.

 

[mrarroyo]

Right now I have other priorities than a new cd-player. However I would like to replace my 7+ year old Sony DVP-NS300 which I use as both a cd-player and a transport. I am thinking of an used Marantz SA8001 which with luck can be found for under $600 in Audiogon.

A few here have and love the SA8001. However has any of you compared it w/ a cd-player selling of over $2,500? I would like to know what your thoughts are. Thanks.

 

[Yikes]

I've never heard the SA8001.

about my last post.

Don't you hate people who quote themselves.

 

[jp11801]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif A ultra high performance quality player will continue to outperform a more modest budget player for many years. The reason for this is that the quality and sophistication of the Digital section is only one small factor in an entire design. The other sections of the player (Power Supply, Output Section) are all much more mature technologies, therefore what constitutes "State of the Art" doesn't change very often. In these sections where the technology is more mature parts quality is why an expensive older player will continue to excel. A cheaper player will never have the quality of Output section and power supply that well designed and built expensive players have. IMHO the Power Supply and Output section are much more critical than the Digital section. The thing that drives down the prices of older high end players and why buying new or at least newer makes sense is that players have moving parts. Moving parts break, and since CD drive mechanisms change every couple of years getting an older player repaired is problematic. I would absolutely take something like a Sonic Frontiers SFD-2 Mk2 (From mid 90's) over a new cheap DAC. The problem is that DAC's like that don't often see the light of day.

absolutely true a great dac from the mid nineties can rock your socks off and best many of the better units out there today and for the reasons listed above. Many dacs that are loved use mediocre power supplies. Look at most mods companies what do they do they change two things primarily the power supply and output stage. This is easily tested just read the apogee mini dac threads and the improvements made when tossing the switching noisy PS for a well implemented PS. Many dacs from that era that were well made also have well done power supplies and output stages. Many of today's even better sources skimp in the area of PS.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm surprised. Earlier in this thread I made a statement that I truly believe, but I was sure that it would be controversial and people would jump all over it. Not a peep.

that statement was pretty much a no brainer with the exception of a few modded dacs I have heard, stock the statement rings true.

 

[cobra_verde]

Speaking as someone without a lot of experience, I can say that getting really good headphones and amp is much less daunting than putting together a really good source. For less than $1,500, you can buy any one of the following: Grado GS-1000, Grado HP-2s, markl modified Denons, etc. For less than $2,000, there are any number of terrific amps. But without a lot of experience, putting together a high-end turntable seems close to impossible, with having to get the turntable, tonearm, cartridge, phono stage, and the power cords, interconnects, tubes, record cleaners, and various set-up tools. Putting together the digital source is also complicated due to what others have said above about the gear being obsolete quickly. This is a long roundabout way of saying that for me, at least, it is easier to get a few good cans, a good amp, and use this as the foundation of a system that I will build around. It's not that my source doesn't matter, it's just that I haven't gotten around to getting my source optimized yet.

 

[HiWire]

The headphones and headphone amps are a subset of audiophilia - the cans ghetto, so to speak. Shopping for sources takes you into another domain - stores selling high-end sources are often intimidating and it is sometimes difficult to do back-to-back comparisons of equipment without an accommodating salesperson. Running sources on unfamiliar or non-preferred amps, interconnects, and speakers further complicates your impressions.

I agree with the OP - people proselytizing cheap sources are usually hearing what they want to hear.

 

[Happy Camper]

I kind of agree with two views.

A good source is critical to get the best performance possible out of other gear.

An older, properly built source will sound just as good (if not better) on said equipment as the new stuff unless the new stuff is a technological gem.

I'm still running an old CAL dac. I have a slight itch for a newer source but not because of greater sound quality as much as in digital convenience. I'm still debating if more detail will sound better or worse. You get better sounding instruments and poorer sounding recordings. Is it worth it? I can be blissfully ignorant of the finer details or learn to gloss over the crappy recordings for much more cost.

I'm glad I got my amp before my source. I can live with a bit less source with better amps and hps than I could with better sourcing and inferior amps and hps.

So the ojt continues.

 

[recstar24]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm surprised. Earlier in this thread I made a statement that I truly believe, but I was sure that it would be controversial and people would jump all over it. Not a peep.

Look where you posted it in. Most users here in the hi end forum already understand or own a very high quality source, whether it be old or new. Go post it in the portable form and I am sure you will get the flames you are asking for

 

[rlpaul]

I dunno... it seems logical to me. Take photocopying as an example. It doesn't matter what kind of paper, ink, DPI resolution the copier has, if the source is grainy, its going to turn out grainy. Period. End of story.