[Sherwood]

...

 

[jc1600cc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh let's see. It has little bass, and poor dynamics, but for me the worse thing is that it puts forth a very two dimensional presentation. Unlike most cheap players it is NOT thin and aggressive. It is just the opposite, it lacks both high frequency and low frequency energy. But you miss the point of my post. It was not a review of the Playstation, it was a comment on how many seriously short change in the source department. You never hear about the person who uses a killer source (lets say a Wadia 581) and a great amp (lets say a RS B-52) in conjunction with some Grado SR-80's and claim that they are getting amazing sound. Yet many use exceptional amp/headphone combinations with grossly mismatched sources and brag about their results. And I would also disagree with your statement that "price has little to do with the sound created by a product." Price is certainly not the only factor, but many of the determining factors of sound quality are directly linked to price. Build quality, parts quality, circuit sophistication all have a major impact on performance and price. To be more specific. I have been an Audio Hobbyist for 30 years and in the Audio field for over 20 years, and never not once have I heard a reference caliber (Being at or near the top of all subjective sonic criteria at the time) component that wasn't expensive. All expensive products are not reference caliber, but all reference caliber products are expensive.

Very well put . Source is very important .

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif [size=small]Why is it that many members skimp with regards to their sources? In what universe does it make sense to spend thousands of dollars on Headphones and an amp to drive them and then use a crappy source?[/size] [size=small]I’ve got news for you; a used Sony Playstation is not a worthy source for a truly high-end headphone or speaker based system. I own one and it’s almost as good as my Oppo DV970HD that serves as my bedroom source. Neither is good enough to set foot in either my high-end speaker rig or my headphone rig. Either would be fine in a $300 to $800 system, but above that I’d seriously consider any number of players from NAD, Cambridge Audio or others.[/size] [size=small]I actually believe that certain reviewers periodically decide to prank the audio community by starting rumors about and then reviewing certain cheap or long discontinued products. There was the Optimus CD-3400 back in the early 90’s. “Sam Tellig” [size=xx-small](sic)[/size] should have gotten a kickback from Radio Shack because his review in Stereophile had to have sold thousands of the little suckers. I know; I purchased one of them. It was a good sounding portable, but its performance was not even remotely close to that of my Denon DCD-1520. So I used it as a portable until it died after about a year. The same can be said of the Oppo DV970HD. It’s a great $160 player, but it doesn’t really compare with any number of quality players in the $300-$500 range. I purchased one on the strength of its reviews, and it is relegated to my bedroom system (To be honest I purchased it as my bedroom source, although I did try it in my big system). It was (I believe that it is now discontinued) an exceptional $160 player, but it was no giant killer.[/size] [size=small]As far as the Playststion goes; any number of reviewers have drank the Cool Aid as far as it goes. It does little to offend and just as little to excite. If you are using one and you think that you’re using a high end source you are deluding yourself. [/size] [size=small]Using a Playstation as the source in a high performance high-end system is like running Bias-ply retread tires on a Ferrari; it’ll work, but it will hardly allow the Ferrari to do what it is capable of.[/size] [size=small]Let the flaming begin. [/size]

terrible post. Just cuz playstation doesn't play well with your music selection is in no way the machine's fault; it's not 'universal' sounding, but it does wonders on some genres.

Did you even volume match? Playstation has 1.5mV output compared to the regular 2.0mV IIRC.

Furthermore, Playstation has a fairly high output imp (I don't recall the actual figuer), so if your preamp input imp (across the entire frequency range) is low you will have flabby bass and rolled off highs (not a problem for you though with 50Kohm input imp)

 

[powertoold]

Does he even have a SCPH-1001 is the question!

But he does include the "truly high-end" modifier, which always means expensive, and so by definition, what he says is true. You can't have a "truly high-end" system with a Playstation SCPH-1001 because it doesn't cost more than $3000.

It's true that sources matter, but to what degree do they matter for their cost is the problem. The source would be the last thing I buy

 

[Sherwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by powertoold /img/forum/go_quote.gif The source would be the last thing I buy

Of course, none of us have any idea what you buy, because after 1300 posts and one year you haven't filled out your profile.

 

[powertoold]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of course, none of us have any idea what you buy, because after 1300 posts and one year you haven't filled out your profile.

Anyway, it all doesn't matter. I find myself posting too much about topics I have little experience in. I'm just going to stop. My advice is to listen to spritzer; he knows what he's talking about. A lot of people here don't, especially me

 

[Audio-Omega]

May be I should get a better source than an amp next.

 

[Akabeth]

This thread has piqued my interest so I guess I'll throw a bit of a/b comparison I did about an hour ago.

I just plugged in my iPod to SRM-717>O2 setup and listened to a few songs I know well (ripped in Apple Lossless format). Btw please do note that I have not listened to my iPod in about a month and a half due to... my lack of interest.

In comparison to the Esoteric source, it sounded lifeless, smeared, honky (esp. vocals), and missing swabs of details especially in the frequency extremes > both low end (kick drums, base chorus pieces) and high registers (cymbals, etc). I didn't expect that much difference; although it wasn't unlistenable by any stretch, it was pretty bad :\

Though I haven't done any comparisons with my other Pioneer source. Maybe I'll do one later...

 

[883dave]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audio-Omega /img/forum/go_quote.gif May be I should get a better source than an amp next.

You might want to listen to a few, so you can make your own mind up

 

[Victor Chew]

I have also tried using the ipod through my 717 driving my O2mk1. I too found the sound to be lifeless and thin when compared to my koala tube using XLR. If you want the ipod to work better try connecting an amp out of the LOD then to the 717. I use the iqube for the amp. Problem is that you will need to turn the volume up quite a bit (I turn it up about 3/4 way) and the battery will not last. Better still, connect a cap this way - ipod LOD to cap (Iuse the soniccaps 4.7uF with bypass) to amp (iqube for me) then to 717. I have found the sound to be acceptable.

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akabeth /img/forum/go_quote.gif This thread has piqued my interest so I guess I'll throw a bit of a/b comparison I did about an hour ago. I just plugged in my iPod to SRM-717>O2 setup and listened to a few songs I know well (ripped in Apple Lossless format). Btw please do note that I have not listened to my iPod in about a month and a half due to... my lack of interest. In comparison to the Esoteric source, it sounded lifeless, smeared, honky (esp. vocals), and missing swabs of details especially in the frequency extremes > both low end (kick drums, base chorus pieces) and high registers (cymbals, etc). I didn't expect that much difference; although it wasn't unlistenable by any stretch, it was pretty bad :\ Though I haven't done any comparisons with my other Pioneer source. Maybe I'll do one later...

I will challenge you to a PS SCPH1001 vs Esoteric shoot out... Maze & Blue style!

 

[Sherwood]

The gauntlet has been thrown!

Note: This shootout should never praise the PS1 for being "so close to the Esoteric, and for 1% of the price!" Those kinds of conclusions are old hat. The actual difference between the best and worst source is relatively small, but supremely important. Source is where price/performance goes to die, and where gains are hard fought and hard won.

 

[Karl H]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif All expensive products are not reference caliber, but all reference caliber products are expensive.

I suppose that would depend on the individuals point of reference. I think someone earlier in the thread touched on the fact that many are not in a position to be able to play with different toys first hand, especially expensive ones.

I don't think an hour listening in a shop really counts as constructive experience on which to base a decision to spend what may be the best part, if not more than a months salary on a transport, or any other component. I used to like to spend a few days with a product in my own listening environment, opportunity allowing.

About 18 years ago a friend of mine used to run a hi-fi shop. I used to spend a fair amount of my spare time in there. I was also fortunate enough to be allowed to take kit home to play with and would spend hours comparing one thing with another. One thing I did discover on my own is that of course, the more expensive something is, doesn't automatically qualify it as being better. But then the word 'better' covers so many parameters.

I guess one would have to consider what's important to them, and spend accordingly. I was happy to buy a TEAC VRDS-7 about 14 years ago, and only today have I decided to replace it, and that's simply because the poor old thing is in need of a good service and quite frankly, I can't be bothered.

This time I've ordered a Roksan Kandy III without an audition, not just because it'll match my Roksan amp, or because reviews say it's good, but mainly because it'll make me feel good. Maybe it's a lot of money just for the feel-good factor, but it's all relative. To a footballer earning £50K a week, it wouldn't give him the same feeling, I'm sure, even if it did sound the same to him as something costing 10 times as much. You know which one he'd buy.

What is important to me, and always has been, is the music. It is nice being in a position where you are free to spend money on luxury goods (as far as I'm concerned, hi-fi is a luxury) but if I had to put up with a portable cd player just so I could listen to my favourite album, I wouldn't grumble. I only had my MP3 player with me in Iraq but I don't remember wishing I'd been able to take the VRDS-7 with me.

Interesting reading this thread by the way.

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif I will challenge you to a PS SCPH1001 vs Esoteric shoot out... Maze & Blue style!

I can't comment on the Esoteric, but I can say, as an owner of the original PS1 (I was one of those geeks who payed $500 on eBay so they could have one of the first ones

), that it can't even hold a candle to my Linn.

 

[SiBurning]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif [size=small]Why is it that many members skimp with regards to their sources? In what universe does it make sense to spend thousands of dollars on Headphones and an amp to drive them and then use a crappy source?[/size]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvlgato /img/forum/go_quote.gif the two biggest chances to make a difference in sound quality are the places where sound is converted: speaker/headphone and source (cartridge for vinyl back then, and some would say still now, but now I'm just dating myself!). Granted, the overall sound is only as strong as the weakest link

Clearly, we're not all talking high end systems here. For the rest of us, the weakest link can't be emphasized enough. Maybe the transitions are most important, but it's useless to try getting there if the other components aren't up to snuff.

Starting from a really crappy chain store type system (cheapest Onkyo separate, Polk RT16, $100 cd player), at some point I got a decent amplifier (creek 5350se). One day I was watching Lost in Space. The battle near the beginning has some sound effects that I thought were some kind of deep sythensized noise. Well, knock me down, but they turn out to be bass drums. I play drums, and hadn't realized. Talk about a crappy amp.

Next, I auditioned a few $500-$1500 cd players, but it was futile, since most of the gains were lost on my crappy speakers. So, I got some better bookshelf speakers (Epos M5) just to be able to audition sources. Meanwhile, I got a few okay sources. Currently have an oppo for sacd and feeding redbook into the original MSB link DAC, and a JVC XV-SA602SL for dvd-a. A (Epos) subwoofer later, and retiring the Polks, it's time to look at sources more seriously.

Thing is, at the last few meets, I've been noticing the difference between 16-bit CD and other sources, such as analog, SACD, and DVD-A. Not to start that controversy, but I'm also looking at setting up a 5.1 system for the television, so it makes sense to look at this more broadly.

What's troubling me now is that I might get a decent CD player, and then find that the weakest link is redbook audio.