[Gerryhatrick]

 
See this post ( http://www.head-fi.org/t/780642/onkyo-dp-x1-dual-sabre-dacs-balanced-sabre-btl-amp-mqa-dsd-256-android-5/13245#post_13212630 ), where I quoted some questions I posed on the Onkyo USA Facebook page, and their answers.  The questions may not have been answered by someone in the Onkyo Engineering division, but my take on their reply is that only one of the two DACs is used by third party apps.  Apparently, the Onkyo Play Music app sends the music data to their own driver (rather than the default Android driver), which does use both DACs.
 
Take Care,
David Baldock

Hi David - yes I read your post and the Onkyo response made me none the wiser!  And comments from others far more knowledgeable than me cast doubt on Onkyo USA's response to your query,
I'm sure I am missing a critical technical point here but if hibymusic is only using one DAC whether balanced or SE why do I hear a volume difference? Does the Onkyo driver drop the volume on one amp on balanced even if it is only it is only sending an analogue signal from one DAC?
 
Sorry if this is badly worded!

 

[fezzyness]

 
Hi David - yes I read your post and the Onkyo response made me none the wiser!  And comments from others far more knowledgeable than me cast doubt on Onkyo USA's response to your query,
I'm sure I am missing a critical technical point here but if hibymusic is only using one DAC whether balanced or SE why do I hear a volume difference? Does the Onkyo driver drop the volume on one amp on balanced even if it is only it is only sending an analogue signal from one DAC?
 
Sorry if this is badly worded!

​Are you mixing up the difference between AMPs and DACs?

 

[Gerryhatrick]

 
​Are you mixing up the difference between AMPs and DACs?

 
Poor sentence construction - analogue signal sent from one DAC to one AMP

 

[mikeral]

 
I fail to see the relation between the two. The X1 has only one set of DACs; a set of Sabre dacs in this case. These dacs perform the D-A conversion. There are no other components in the X1 which may be able to do D-A conversion besides the Sabre dacs. The boards of the X1 are not drawn up from some other design that the Sabre DACs were added to later on. The X1 was designed around these DACs from the ground up, so only one set of DACs is available in the device.
 
As for your other point: DSD is not a music format in the way Flac, Wav and MP3 are. DSD is a container format for musical information stored in a digital format. That's also why there is no DSD codec available. And that is also why DSD does not support tags, covers and all that sort of additional information. It is just raw information of an audio stream (compare this for example to JPG versus RAW format). So this information has to be streamed in order to be playable, which is why the X1 uses a PCM stream for DSD. To be honest I am not quite sure of the accuracy of this (please correct me if I'm wrong), but this is the information I have.

DSD, when stored on a computer, there are two major file formats for DSD: DSF and DFF. I have plenty of DSF files and they do support all the tags including embedded art. DFF files do not allow tags.

 

[fezzyness]

   
Poor sentence construction - analogue signal sent from one DAC to one AMP

​if there is no change in volume, then you can rest easy that the audio is at least going through both amps. several of us have tried to distinguish the sound quality between the stock player and 3rd party, and haven't been able to tell the difference. I'm getting a balanced cable soon and am going to test if that still is the same case.
 
The point is, if we think the device sounds great, and can't tell a difference without doing a blind test, then who cares if it's going through one or two DACs? It doesn't make a difference if you can't tell anyway.

 

[monkeyboylee]

Hi all, just got this reply from Onkyo regarding dual dac use

Hello, the dual amplifiers and DNC's are used when using either output jack. We can't confirm that they are used when using a third party APP beacuse we have not tested those APP's. At this time we are stating no. Thank you,

 

[Gerryhatrick]

 
​if there is no change in volume, then you can rest easy that the audio is at least going through both amps. several of us have tried to distinguish the sound quality between the stock player and 3rd party, and haven't been able to tell the difference. I'm getting a balanced cable soon and am going to test if that still is the same case.
 
The point is, if we think the device sounds great, and can't tell a difference without doing a blind test, then who cares if it's going through one or two DACs? It doesn't make a difference if you can't tell anyway.

But there is a change in volume SE vs Balanced using a 3rd party app. I agree, to me neutron and hibymusic sound as good as the stock player.
 
I'm a scientist (but biochemist not electronics!) and I look for mechanisms!

 

[fezzyness]

 
But there is a change in volume SE vs Balanced using a 3rd party app. I agree, to me neutron and hibymusic sound as good as the stock player.
 
I'm a scientist (but biochemist not electronics!) and I look for mechanisms!

​there isn't a change in volume when using the stock player and switching from balanced to SE?

 

[headwhacker]

 
​there isn't a change in volume when using the stock player and switching from balanced to SE?

There is, If you set the balanced mode output to "balanced" in settings the volume is 2x the SE output. If you have set it to "ACG" the volume is the same as SE. It is 
 
Quoted from DP-X1 manual page 89. (http://www.jp.onkyo.com/audiovisual/dap/SN29402246_DP-X1_En_1120.pdf)

Output select
Switching the headphone output.
Balanced
A mode suitable for when you have connected balanced headphones. Compared to the normal single-ended operation, you can get a larger output and the high voltage is not grounded together with the small signal, so you can anticipate a superior effect in the quality of the music, which means you can drive headphones that have a high impedance.
A.C.G.
A mode suitable for when you have connected balanced headphones. The basic operating method is the same as the balanced mode, but uses technology to even more forcefully fix grounding standards, so you can enjoy a sound quality with improved clarity and stability than the balanced mode. Output volume is the same as the singleended operation, however.

 
Also check the product brochure (http://www.nl.onkyo.com/downloads/2/9/6/8/9/ONKYO_DP-X1_Brochure_EN.pdf) 
 
There is an illustration about the balanced output modes
 

Of course Onkyo can't speak about 3rd party apps. But given the diagram and the balanced output works with 3rd party apps, imo it uses the sabre DACs as well the only difference is the 3rd party apps uses the Android music stack and not Onkyo's driver. So advanced DAC features are not accessible to 3rd party apps like the stock music player can. An example is the sampling rate in 3rd-party apps like HibyMusic and Foobar2k is fixed at 48khz. So playing hi res files is resampled to 48Khz on the fly by the app.

 

[Gerryhatrick]

​there isn't a change in volume when using the stock player and switching from balanced to SE?

Just checked - there is. Listen to a track on SE and set vol at 130 (pretty loud (Queen dsf). Pause and switch to balanced. Restart track - still loud but vol setting has dropped to 108. (Maybe automatic to save from damaging your hearing?

Same thing happens in reverse if you go from balanced to SE.

Third party app (Hibiplayer) behaves in the same way.

 

[fezzyness]

  There is, If you set the balanced mode output to "balanced" in settings the volume is 2x the SE output. If you have set it to "ACG" the volume is the same as SE. It is 
 
Quoted from DP-X1 manual page 89. (http://www.jp.onkyo.com/audiovisual/dap/SN29402246_DP-X1_En_1120.pdf)
 
Also check the product brochure (http://www.nl.onkyo.com/downloads/2/9/6/8/9/ONKYO_DP-X1_Brochure_EN.pdf) 
 
There is an illustration about the balanced output modes
 

​Nooooooooooo you don't get it haha, I was asking because they said "in 3rd party apps" specifically.

 

[fezzyness]

Just checked - there is. Listen to a track on SE and set vol at 130 (pretty loud (Queen dsf). Pause and switch to balanced. Restart track - still loud but vol setting has dropped to 108. (Maybe automatic to save from damaging your hearing?

Same thing happens in reverse if you go from balanced to SE.

Third party app (Hibiplayer) behaves in the same way.

​perfect!
 
Guys, this has to do with the AMP itself. please guys, go look up the FiiO AM3 module for the FiiO X7. It is an AMP module that delivers more power when balanced. This is not due to the DACs, it's due to the AMPs being more efficient in balanced mode.

 

[Gerryhatrick]

There is, If you set the balanced mode output to "balanced" in settings the volume is 2x the SE output. If you have set it to "ACG" the volume is the same as SE. It is 

Quoted from DP-X1 manual page 89. (http://www.jp.onkyo.com/audiovisual/dap/SN29402246_DP-X1_En_1120.pdf)

Also check the product brochure (http://www.nl.onkyo.com/downloads/2/9/6/8/9/ONKYO_DP-X1_Brochure_EN.pdf) 

There is an illustration about the balanced output modes

Agreed - my findings only apply to balanced not ACG

 

[headwhacker]

 
​Nooooooooooo you don't get it haha, I was asking because they said "in 3rd party apps" specifically.

it behaves the same 3rd party apps. That is what I was telling you. I have edited my post you have quoted

 

[fezzyness]

  it behaves the same 3rd party apps. That is what I was telling you. I have edited my post you have quoted

​yes bud I actually was asking @Gerryhatrick specifically because if they didn't notice a difference then they would have had a defective model.
 
I know how it works, I wasn't questioning that, I was asking about their device since they only mentioned the change occurring in 3rd party apps lolol
 
sorry for the confusion.