[cirodts]

Thanks a lot, I read that among pionner and fiio x7 would seem better in sq l x7.
I think I will go on onkyo But I can not take advantage of the balanced output, but in unbalanced I hope onkyo by dual dac exceeds pionner and fiio.

 

[Sonic Defender]

  Thanks a lot, I read that among pionner and fiio x7 would seem better in sq l x7.
I think I will go on onkyo But I can not take advantage of the balanced output, but in unbalanced I hope onkyo by dual dac exceeds pionner and fiio.

No, in single ended the DP-X1 will not use two DACs.
 
Offending free thought removed in an effort to maintain thread harmony.

 

[cirodts]

I know that two dac audio differences are there but not necessarily, the fact that unbalanced the onkyo uses only one dac instead of two did not know, and this will affect my choice.

 

[addyg]

  Posted this on the Meze Headphones 99 Classics Discussion + Impression thread, but re-posting here:
 
---
 
Some pics I took earlier and posted on Twitter, the Meze Headphones 99 Classic Walnut Silver with my Onkyo DP-X1 digital audio player in medium gain, single-ended mode:
 

 

 

 
I totally danced my ass off to this!
 
That's right @MezeTeam, you made headphones to dance to; bravo!

 
Thank you for your review of Meze 99 with dp-x1. This headphone has been recommended by a local old store in HK.  I think I would give it a try after your review.

 

[TheOneInYellow]

   
Thank you for your review of Meze 99 with dp-x1. This headphone has been recommended by a local old store in HK.  I think I would give it a try after your review.

 
Just a small correction, I've yet to write my review; I have only written impressions. Rudi on Facebook has done the same and echoes my feelings. As does Michael, Harmony, Tyll, Peter from DHC, etc.
It's my second day with them and I have been playing with the 99 Classics, as well as enjoying my now beefed up Audeze EL-8 Titanium with DHC Molecule Elite 22 Silver (25AWG) balanced cable as well.
 
I am very lucky to have two genuinely amazing cans that are both musical in their own ways.
 
However, thank you for the kind words, I am glad my earlier impressions helped.
The headphones do require burn-in but the quality is immediate fresh out-of-the-box.
I decided not not do burn-in via repeated noise playing, but listen to the cans as they change.
 
If you do demo the cans, post your honest opinions. I really hope you enjoy them ^^
 
Just a few moments ago I wrote another impression on the Meze 99 Classics Discussion + Impressions thread (link to my post, #672 on page 45, here).

 

[edwardsean]

  No, in single ended the DP-X1 will not use two DACs, and that doesn't matter. There is very little to almost zero evidence or technical reasons why two DACs will sound better, despite what you read. The notion that our brain can hear these absolutely tiny differences in noise floor and distortion is not a fact, it is measureable, but that isn't established as audible. The X7 will sound amazing, the DP-X1 will sound amazing, and they both will sound far more similar than different. Get the one you think is most flexible and takes care of your current and hopefully future needs. Don't get hung up on balanced versus single ended, it really is not worth getting hung up about.

Hey SD, we've talked through this before and we don't have to get into it again. I believe in the benefits of balanced, and for me, that is a compelling feature of the DPX1. You don't believe balanced offers any audible benefits. Respectful disagreements and debate are a large part of how we all learn, and I never want to stop learning. Can I just ask you one question? I'm not asking it rhetorically. It's an honest question trying to understand the basis of your thought. 
 
You seem to repeat the same technical arguments about what the brain can distinguish in terms of measurable noise floor, distortion, etc. It could be good information, but it sounds like information you've read some place. Have you actually listened to different amps/DACs and compared balanced and unbalanced outputs for yourself? If you have verified what you're saying for yourself then I gladly respect your position. 

 

[TheOneInYellow]

  No, in single ended the DP-X1 will not use two DACs, and that doesn't matter. There is very little to almost zero evidence or technical reasons why two DACs will sound better, despite what you read. The notion that our brain can hear these absolutely tiny differences in noise floor and distortion is not a fact, it is measureable, but that isn't established as audible. The X7 will sound amazing, the DP-X1 will sound amazing, and they both will sound far more similar than different. Get the one you think is most flexible and takes care of your current and hopefully future needs. Don't get hung up on balanced versus single ended, it really is not worth getting hung up about.

 
 

 
Hey SD, we've talked through this before and we don't have to get into it again. I believe in the benefits of balanced, and for me, that is a compelling feature of the DPX1. You don't believe balanced offers any audible benefits. Respectful disagreements and debate are a large part of how we all learn, and I never want to stop learning. Can I just ask you one question? I'm not asking it rhetorically. It's an honest question trying to understand the basis of your thought. 
 
You seem to repeat the same technical arguments about what the brain can distinguish in terms of measurable noise floor, distortion, etc. It could be good information, but it sounds like information you've read some place. Have you actually listened to different amps/DACs and compared balanced and unbalanced outputs for yourself? If you have verified what you're saying for yourself then I gladly respect your position. 

 
 
I wrote something recently and though it is a different topic, it is indirectly related.
 
As far as I am concerned, lowering noise floor in anyway possible means less artifacts or issues DAC's have to deal with, an amplifier will have more power to amplify audio signals rather than noise (greater headroom), and the end transducer (speakers or headphones/earphones) will have better responsiveness to amplified audio signals rather than reproducing unwanted noise.
(Bear in mind, it is impossible to completely get rid of noise).
 
So, it's not exactly that we hear lower noise floor, but by lowering noise, we hear more music, therefore greater clarity. Whether this lowering of noise is from cleaner power input, better shielded and more conductive cables, less vibration of systems (though this is dependant on what gear is used), single-ended or balanced setups, etc, either together or parts of these, is irrelevant. Lowering noise in general is a positive as long as it is within budget and appreciable to you, the user.
 
How one perceives this, or not, is different to each person, and their own physiological markup.
 
Here's my original discussion on the benefits of lower noise floor in cables, originally published over two posts on this thread but I modified and combined both for another thread earlier this week; link here.

 

[addyg]

The new AK70 comes with one dac and it is capable of 2.5mm balanced output.
 
The Fiio X7 comes with one dac and it is capable of 2.5mm balanced output.
 
So why does dp-x1 need two dac to do the 2.5mm balanced output?
 
I think the answer is not what is capable but what is better in design.
 
Even the dp-x1 using two separate boards to carry the Android CPU and traditional dac + amp part is not necessory , however in Hi-Fi business, every manufacturer should drive to not only do what is capable, but what is better in Hi-Fi sound performance.

 

[howdy]

The new AK70 comes with one dac and it is capable of 2.5mm balanced output.

The Fiio X7 comes with one dac and it is capable of 2.5mm balanced output.

So why does dp-x1 need two dac to do the 2.5mm balanced output?

I think the answer is not what is capable but what is better in design.

Even the dp-x1 using two separate boards to carry the Android CPU and traditional dac + amp part is not necessory , however in Hi-Fi business, every manufacturer should drive to not only do what is capable, but what is better in Hi-Fi sound performance.

The DAC has a certain amount of channels for instance the one in the X7 has 8 which means it it can do both SE and balanced where as the one in the Onkyo had 4. But, the one in the X7 is a battery hog where these are designed for portable use and extended battery life. The Onkyo also separated the DAC and AMPs from CPU as they say it will not cause interference issues causing distortion. I'm on my phone so someone else can add more to this.

 

[cirodts]

  The new AK70 comes with one dac and it is capable of 2.5mm balanced output.
 
The Fiio X7 comes with one dac and it is capable of 2.5mm balanced output.
 
So why does dp-x1 need two dac to do the 2.5mm balanced output?
 
I think the answer is not what is capable but what is better in design.
 
Even the dp-x1 using two separate boards to carry the Android CPU and traditional dac + amp part is not necessory , however in Hi-Fi business, every manufacturer should drive to not only do what is capable, but what is better in Hi-Fi sound performance.

dp unbalanced uses only one dac?

 

[TheOneInYellow]

  The new AK70 comes with one dac and it is capable of 2.5mm balanced output.
 
The Fiio X7 comes with one dac and it is capable of 2.5mm balanced output.
 
So why does dp-x1 need two dac to do the 2.5mm balanced output?
 
I think the answer is not what is capable but what is better in design.
 
Even the dp-x1 using two separate boards to carry the Android CPU and traditional dac + amp part is not necessory , however in Hi-Fi business, every manufacturer should drive to not only do what is capable, but what is better in Hi-Fi sound performance.

 
@nanaholic has already covered this in this post.
 
You can have either multiple DAC's for balanced, or a single chip to do balanced because said chip combines multiple parts on the same SoC rather than separating them into multiple chips or components.
 
The DAC's used in the DP-X1 and AK70 cannot be compared as to which is better at balanced design circuitry because they are completely different chip designs.
 
The DP-X1 uses ESS Saber ES9018 DAC chips, so two are necessary for balanced design (1x DAC for +L/-L, and 1x DAC for +R/-R).
Some DAC designers go further and use four DAC's for a differential balanced design (one chip per each phase of channel: 1x DAC for +L, 1x DAC -L, 1x DAC +R, 1x DAC -R).
Some go even further and have 2x DAC's or more per each phase of channel, but now we are getting into crazy territory.
 
Then there's R2R, Direct PWM or PDM DAC's, etc.
 
However @addyg, you are completely correct when you say "...answer is not what is capable but what is better in design...'.
 
It may not be necessary for companies to separate boards, have multiple DAC chips, better cables, etc, but they exist for a reason. Get through those companies that are snake-oil and focusing on those manufacturer's truly dedicated to the art of sound, and we have a plethora of options available for everyone.

 

[Sonic Defender]

 
Hey SD, we've talked through this before and we don't have to get into it again. I believe in the benefits of balanced, and for me, that is a compelling feature of the DPX1. You don't believe balanced offers any audible benefits. Respectful disagreements and debate are a large part of how we all learn, and I never want to stop learning. Can I just ask you one question? I'm not asking it rhetorically. It's an honest question trying to understand the basis of your thought. 
 
You seem to repeat the same technical arguments about what the brain can distinguish in terms of measurable noise floor, distortion, etc. It could be good information, but it sounds like information you've read some place. Have you actually listened to different amps/DACs and compared balanced and unbalanced outputs for yourself? If you have verified what you're saying for yourself then I gladly respect your position. 

Retracted as I should know better.

 

[TheOneInYellow]

  dp unbalanced uses only one dac?

 
I covered all the iterations of how the Onkyo DP-X1 works in this post earlier this week on this thread.
 
Please click here for original post (and read the follow-up posts too) ^^

 

[TheOneInYellow]

  Yes, I have heard a few balanced setups, including owning the DP-X1 and using it balanced with both a PM3 and a 400i. I could only benefit in terms of more power from balanced, but if you think these tiny differences are audible that is fine, I have never told you what to believe. To your point about free and open discussion, it seems people sometimes interpret that as meaning those who agree with me are free to discuss what I agree with, but those who don't should be quiet. I don't believe I have been disrespectful or strayed away from a factual, evidenced based position. From personal experience, albeit not the most exhaustive, I have not been able to hear any differences, but I do acknowledge that there are both theoretical and mechanically measureable differences. What I have said before and I will say it again, I have never found anybody to conduct any real experiments that demonstrate this predicted audibility. Perhaps if some robust (easy enough to do at home) experiments were actually done, maybe evidence to support the audible advantages of balanced versus non-balanced will emerge, perhaps not.
 
Don't get upset with me, prove me wrong. get multiple subjects, do multiple blind listening trials conducted by somebody impartial and see how things shake out. I actually hope you are right (and you just might be), I love audio equipment, and I love reading about thoughtful component design. I would easily spend more money for even modest, but audible benefits so I'm all for balanced, not against it, I just want more evidence then hundreds of people saying trust me, I hear it.
 
Anyway, this type of discussion is not allowed here so I should desist. The better tactic would have been to PM the OP with my thoughts to avoid this. I'll likely even erase this post after I think about it. Shame that those who question are banished to the sound science forum.

 
 
I don't think anyone was getting upset with you.
 
Others have posted their own points too (and not aimed at you either but in general), and though it is a choice of yours, it may be worth reading them.
 
We all have different tastes as well...

 

[edwardsean]

  Yes, I have heard a few balanced setups, including owning the DP-X1 and using it balanced with both a PM3 and a 400i. I could only benefit in terms of more power from balanced, but if you think these tiny differences are audible that is fine, I have never told you what to believe. To your point about free and open discussion, it seems people sometimes interpret that as meaning those who agree with me are free to discuss what I agree with, but those who don't should be quiet. I don't believe I have been disrespectful or strayed away from a factual, evidenced based position. From personal experience, albeit not the most exhaustive, I have not been able to hear any differences, but I do acknowledge that there are both theoretical and mechanically measureable differences. What I have said before and I will say it again, I have never found anybody to conduct any real experiments that demonstrate this predicted audibility. Perhaps if some robust (easy enough to do at home) experiments were actually done, maybe evidence to support the audible advantages of balanced versus non-balanced will emerge, perhaps not.
 
Don't get upset with me, prove me wrong. get multiple subjects, do multiple blind listening trials conducted by somebody impartial and see how things shake out. I actually hope you are right (and you just might be), I love audio equipment, and I love reading about thoughtful component design. I would easily spend more money for even modest, but audible benefits so I'm all for balanced, not against it, I just want more evidence then hundreds of people saying trust me, I hear it.
 
Anyway, this type of discussion is not allowed here so I should desist. The better tactic would have been to PM the OP with my thoughts to avoid this. I'll likely even erase this post after I think about it. Shame that those who question are banished to the sound science forum.

SD, it's hard to know someone's tone when you don't know them or can't see their face. Please know I was being sincere, and I don't think you were disrespectful or speaking without facts. I just wanted to know your firsthand experience and I appreciate you sharing that, honest. Knowing that, you can trust I won't pursue it with you. (Though, your suggestion of revenge by conducting listening trials is intriguing.)
 
I was sincere about wanting to learn, and as long as the debate is honest and gracious, we gain a lot from those we disagree with. I hope that our countering voices adds to the discussion. I do want to advise people toward going balanced because I firmly believe in its effects. Having your opposing view helps people consider more carefully if the costs are worth it for something they might not personally hear. In the end, it urges others to experiment for themselves: something I'm sure we both believe in. 
 
If I ever see you at an audio meet, I'll buy you a beer and you can try to convince me. If you buy me a Guinness in turn, I'll believe anything you say.