[Sonic Defender]

   
This was using USBAPP. I don't know whether the effect with Tidal was as pronounced for those affected, perhaps @Nonnynoo can confirm?
 
 
 
I can't seem to narrow down what app this was, or how it was being used. Does anybody have more information about this? I'm very curious, so was this a WiFi distortion, or over USB audio? I'm confused. Thanks to any who can clarify for me.

 

[Sonic Defender]

Man...eventhough DP-X1 has it own "Cons"...but I am missing it dearly....very dearly....remember, you all are buying a product that is not globally released yet. It was released in "Japan" first because, Onkyo wanted to hear feed backs from their own people, own market, before releasing it to the global. Eventually, they will work out the bugs, and especially seeing how "frequently" they release OTA upgrades in firmware ? I think you are all good to go.

I wish Sony somehow would even upgrade firmware for Zx2..."twice"...they only did it once when it was released from Japan to global market, and done...until now...lol

Well, maybe that just means Sony got it so right they didn't need multiple updates. Trying to see the glass as half full.

 

[LoryWiv]

   
 
vtkc: I'm glad you're enjoying the U12 / DP-X1 combo....sounds like my issue above is not a concern as U12 has impedance of 16 ohms, even less than my A6. Thanks for sharing your experience!

Caveat: if you are running the DP-X1 -> U12 pairing single ended, you are still within the DP-X1 rated impedance range of 16-300. If you run it balanced the range goes to 32-600 and the U12 impedance of 16 might technically result in a poor match. What is your real world experience, vtkc?

 

[LoryWiv]

   
Ahh my bad, the whole vein of the conversation with @LoryWiv was on the output of this DAP with DSD files, and thus I had not felt the need to explain the context.
You are exactly right, so let me clarify this.
 
Context - The PCM output mentioned in the conversation is actually DSD being converted and output as PCM 192kHz by this DAP, which is equivalent in capability (may not be exactly equivalent) to the output of any lossless format with the same bit depth and sample rates.

Very helpful clarification, thank you. From a sound quality point of view, is there reason to believe native DSD would provide an audible advantage? I know there is much debate about audible benefit of high resolution / DSD etc... versus Redbook, but I am wondering if a DAP that does native DSD might be best option if goal is to play these files with best results, rather than outputting them to PCM? If my goal was latter I could just convert them to 24 / 192 FLAC myself with Korg, Foobar etc...

 

[LoryWiv]

  Nah, I'll be more realistic, probably 64 audio U12 or around the same price bracket. Can't have my portable setup becoming more expensive than my desktop 

I'm planning to get a balanced Forza hybrid IEM cable terminated 2.5mm / 4-pin for my 64Audio A6, then pairing it with the DP-X1 once I save a few more bucks and pull the trigger on the DAP. Will this permit me to run fully balanced even without further mods of my A6?

 

[Peridot]

I can't seem to narrow down what app this was, or how it was being used. Does anybody have more information about this? I'm very curious, so was this a WiFi distortion, or over USB audio? I'm confused. Thanks to any who can clarify for me.

 
It's USB Audio Player Pro - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.extreamsd.usbaudioplayerpro&hl=en_GB
 
Most commonly used to drive external DACs from Android phones and tablets, however it can also play via the native Android interface (may need to be enabled in the settings).
 
The recording does sound like it could be Wi-Fi related but I'm sure one of the affected users stated that they had Wi-Fi turned off.

 

[Peridot]

 
What you mean to say is that not everybody observes it - just because one does not see the needle in a haystack does not mean the needle is not there.
For those who have no problems, it could possibly be a lack of acuity or due to the gear used. For eg. headphones are less prone to picking up hissing.
There's no definitive way to prove except by comparing 2 players or taking readings out of an oscilloscope.
Also, the stock player does not demonstrate any problem (which indicates that the issue may potentially lie on the software/firmware level)

 
What puzzles me though is that if the sample posted by earfonia is typical of the effect, many more people should be reporting it, as it's impossible to miss really.
 
It surely doesn't require hearing acuity or sensitive headphones for an effect like that

 

[davidmolliere]

  Caveat: if you are running the DP-X1 -> U12 pairing single ended, you are still within the DP-X1 rated impedance range of 16-300. If you run it balanced the range goes to 32-600 and the U12 impedance of 16 might technically result in a poor match. What is your real world experience, vtkc?

 
I remember digging quite a bit about output impedance when I got the 8 ohm SE846 and 8ohm Pandora VI, I experienced pairing issues with my source at the time. You might have read this but it's a good summary of issues related to amp/headphone mistmatch : http://nwavguy.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html
This thread will also help : http://www.head-fi.org/t/607282/headphone-amp-impedance-questions-find-the-answers-here
 
From that previous thread :

Consider this as a rule of thumb, in order to achieve a certain power, for the headphone to be loud enough:
 

1. A very high impedance causes the amp to reach its voltage limit before enough power can be delivered. There'll be clipping.

 

1. A very low impedance causes the amp to reach its current limit before enough power can be delivered. There'll be distortion.

 
 
The rule of thumb is the output impedance must remain 1/8th of the headphone impedance which to me looks like Onkyo is playing safe by rating 16ohm minimum single ended and 32 ohm balanced. I know the 16ohm T8ie are just as good balanced vs single ended on DP-X1, but those are a single dynamic driver and not multi-driver/BA designs which are known to have impedance variations in the frequency response. I don't have a multi-BA with low impedance to test this with DP-X1. Problem is these days, a lot of IEMs including TOTLs have low impedance around 16ohm while packing more and more drivers which require a very low output impedance source to get a coherent performance accross frequencies.
 

I'm planning to get a balanced Forza hybrid IEM cable terminated 2.5mm / 4-pin for my 64Audio A6, then pairing it with the DP-X1 once I save a few more bucks and pull the trigger on the DAP. Will this permit me to run fully balanced even without further mods of my A6?

 
If someone with same or similar impedance can provide feedback that's probably the only way to know if it's a good match right now, but 22ohms is it? You should be fine.
 
One thing I never realized, until I got the Linum, is that cables have an impedance rating too... Linum Balanced is 1.5ohm and I think they have a 0.75 ohm coming up. I had never seen impedance rating for cable elsewhere, and I am not sure if it can help (or opposite).

 

[Sonic Defender]

   
What puzzles me though is that if the sample posted by earfonia is typical of the effect, many more people should be reporting it, as it's impossible to miss really.
 
It surely doesn't require hearing acuity or sensitive headphones for an effect like that

That is my point exactly. This is either specific to that software, I don't think anybody should be surprised there are possible USB issues, issues with the CPU on the DP-X1, many possibilities. we also can't rule out some issue with the individual unit. So if there was an external device being used/streamed to, how do we know that that device wasn't the source of the issue? I think there is far too much unknown about the context of this issue. I'm not at all saying the DP-X1 in this case wasn't at fault, but we can't assume that either, we just don't have much information.
 
So has anybody else recently provided information on their reported distortion issue and how it is being triggered? Recently I am mostly hearing from people saying they are not experiencing issues. This really needs to be sorted out as people from all over the world are hitting this thread and hearing claims about issues that haven't really been widely tested or confirmed.

 

[Zenifyx]

   
What puzzles me though is that if the sample posted by earfonia is typical of the effect, many more people should be reporting it, as it's impossible to miss really.
 
It surely doesn't require hearing acuity or sensitive headphones for an effect like that

 
What is important to note, is that the file is actually the recorded output from a set of sensitive phones, and also that audio recording equipment tends to be much more sensitive than the human ear.
In this case, the distortion is already recorded in the track at ample volume and thus would be detectable without the need for a set of sensitive phones and/or sensitive ears.
 
So, no, not really the same thing.

 

[Zenifyx]

 
Very helpful clarification, thank you. From a sound quality point of view, is there reason to believe native DSD would provide an audible advantage? I know there is much debate about audible benefit of high resolution / DSD etc... versus Redbook, but I am wondering if a DAP that does native DSD might be best option if goal is to play these files with best results, rather than outputting them to PCM? If my goal was latter I could just convert them to 24 / 192 FLAC myself with Korg, Foobar etc...

 
If most of your library is DSD, you might want to pick up a DAP with native DSD for best results. (However, those AK players do cost an arm and a leg....)
For whether native DSD would be an audible advantage or on PCM vs DSD, that is really up for debate.

 

[LoryWiv]

Delete.

 

[LoryWiv]

 
The rule of thumb is the output impedance must remain 1/8th of the headphone impedance which to me looks like Onkyo is playing safe by rating 16ohm minimum single ended and 32 ohm balanced. I know the 16ohm T8ie are just as good balanced vs single ended on DP-X1, but those are a single dynamic driver and not multi-driver/BA designs which are known to have impedance variations in the frequency response. I don't have a multi-BA with low impedance to test this with DP-X1. Problem is these days, a lot of IEMs including TOTLs have low impedance around 16ohm while packing more and more drivers which require a very low output impedance source to get a coherent performance accross frequencies.
 
 
If someone with same or similar impedance can provide feedback that's probably the only way to know if it's a good match right now, but 22ohms is it? You should be fine.
 
One thing I never realized, until I got the Linum, is that cables have an impedance rating too... Linum Balanced is 1.5ohm and I think they have a 0.75 ohm coming up. I had never seen impedance rating for cable elsewhere, and I am not sure if it can help (or opposite).
 

Thanks davidmolliere! Great help. I've read that NavGuy information on multi-armature IEM impedance swings too, and one section states "The 21 ohm Ultimate Ears SuperFi 5, for example, ranges from 10 ohms to 90 ohms. These wide variations interact in often unfavorable ways with the Output Impedance of the source." That's precisely what made me nervous! Perhaps adding an ohm or so via the cable is helpfull! Also, what if any effect does the 64Audio Adel module have on impedance measurement and variability? Oh well...seems the more I know the less I am certain, and trial and error / trust your ears remains the best philosophy.

 

[LoryWiv]

   
If most of your library is DSD, you might want to pick up a DAP with native DSD for best results. (However, those AK players do cost an arm and a leg....)
For whether native DSD would be an audible advantage or on PCM vs DSD, that is really up for debate.

Thank you Zenifyx. the iBasso DX80 claims native DSD too but doesn't do balanced, and as you say I'd need a 2nd mortgage for A&K. I tried to use my limited knowledge to understand this link about how the Chord Mojo does DSD...it's non-native but SQ well-regarded. Does DP-X1 follow a similar path? Sorry for the barrage of noob-ish questions...trying to expand my knowledge before the US DP-X1 release so I can make an informed decision.

 

[drmacman]

FW update will be distributed todayyyyyy