2 new tracks from the soon to be released Queensryche album. I have to admit that I am a very big fan of the early QR. The track Dark Reverie looks very promising.
Official Progressive Metal Thread (Metal/Djent/instrumental/jazz/fusion)
- Thread starter koover
- Start date
buonassi
Headphoneus Supremus
subbed! excellent thread. Thanks for starting it.
May I offer up a tip for thread rules? Make it mandatory that the artist name is typed out in the body of the post. Of course, you already do this already @koover . But if everyone does this, and uses the 'search this thread' box before posing, we can avoid repeat posts. Of course, different material by the artist is welcomed and not considered a double post.
If you're good with this idea, you can incorporate in the OP of this thread.
May I offer up a tip for thread rules? Make it mandatory that the artist name is typed out in the body of the post. Of course, you already do this already @koover . But if everyone does this, and uses the 'search this thread' box before posing, we can avoid repeat posts. Of course, different material by the artist is welcomed and not considered a double post.
If you're good with this idea, you can incorporate in the OP of this thread.
I guess I don't really know what prog-metal is. 
Though I also used to listen to some QR back in the day.
To be honest, all the different styles of metal confuse the heck outta me. Just for the sake of argument though, how would you distinguish prog-metal from nu-metal, alt-metal, and experimental-metal? Or are these all more or less the same thing?... Any opinions are welcome.
Most of the above groups look a bit younger (and more millennial?), and sound less growly than your average everyday type metal.
Though I also used to listen to some QR back in the day.To be honest, all the different styles of metal confuse the heck outta me. Just for the sake of argument though, how would you distinguish prog-metal from nu-metal, alt-metal, and experimental-metal? Or are these all more or less the same thing?... Any opinions are welcome.
Most of the above groups look a bit younger (and more millennial?), and sound less growly than your average everyday type metal.
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This band is listed on Wikipedia as alt-metal, nu-metal and prog-metal (among other things)...
Am I in the ballpark?
Am I in the ballpark?
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phthora
Headphoneus Supremus
I guess I don't really know what prog-metal is.
To be honest, all the different styles of metal confuse the heck outta me. Just for the sake of argument though, how would you distinguish prog-metal from nu-metal, alt-metal, and experimental-metal? Or are these all more or less the same thing?... Any opinions are welcome.
Most of the above groups look a bit younger (and more millennial?), and sound less growly than your average everyday type metal.
You are asking a complex question. Think of metal as an arch-genre, containing many styles that all sort of pull characteristics from a common pool and form a spectrum. Between the far ends, the differences will be fairly extreme. It may be difficult to find common ground between drone doom metal and power metal, for example, but you can trace influences precursors and eventually see how the two might be related. Prog metal, nu-metal, experimental metal, and alt metal are a lot closer together on that spectrum.
Here are some of the things that are fairly common to prog metal: shifting time signatures, tempos, and styles, pulling musical influences from other genres, complex songs, concept albums, diverse instruments, focus on lyrical depth, talented and clear singing, jazz-influenced drumming, focus on technical prowess in playing, melodic counterpoint, layered vocal arrangements. That's not a complete list, and not every thing on there will appear in every example of prog metal, but that's a start at listing out that common pool of characteristics.
Where prog metal has typically pulled influences from western classical music, other sub-genres of metal can be characterized in part by where they pull their influences from. Thrash started as metal that pulls from punk and combines specific techniques (palm-muting or pedal-point notes) with stylistic elements (like shouted singing). Nu-metal and alt-metal are a bit broader, as they pull in influences from punk, funk, hip hop for nu-metal, and alt rock for alt metal. While prog metal has expanded recently to include post-hardcore (expecially in the singing), metalcore, and djent influence, the alt-rock flavor of Deftones or the rap influence of Rage Against the Machine is not going to be found in prog metal.
Regarding System of a Down, some of their songs border on prog metal, with "Toxicity" being a good example, because they have some of those common characteristics. But, as a band, they are not prog metal.
phthora
Headphoneus Supremus
Here's a good example: Between the Buried and Me - "Voice of Trespass"
All kinds of musical influences contribute to its style, but it's very uncontroversially prog metal. On the other hand, take "Carousel" by Mr. Bungle.
On the surface, it seems like it might be prog metal too, but actually, it's closer to alt-metal or experimental metal. Why? We could talk about the technical differences in the music to justify it (and they would), but honestly a lot of it comes down to provenance, pedigree, influence, etc. At some level, it's just that prog metal is not the way that people think of Mr. Bungle.
All kinds of musical influences contribute to its style, but it's very uncontroversially prog metal. On the other hand, take "Carousel" by Mr. Bungle.
On the surface, it seems like it might be prog metal too, but actually, it's closer to alt-metal or experimental metal. Why? We could talk about the technical differences in the music to justify it (and they would), but honestly a lot of it comes down to provenance, pedigree, influence, etc. At some level, it's just that prog metal is not the way that people think of Mr. Bungle.
This^^^^^^^^
Couldn’t have said it better as this is so spot on.
As for the millennial comment......to me if you have the chops at 10 years old, 30, 50, etc., it doesn’t matter. There is so much undiscovered mad talent out there and a lot of the songs and videos I posted range in 21-50 year old musicians.
Prog Metal is basically an advanced, technical and melodic style where musicianship trumps everything else which includes fame, fortune and notoriety. Most prog Metal bands play for the pure enjoyment of their craft because you’re not going to hear hardly any or none of their material on the radio.
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Thank you for that detailed explanation phthora and koover! Don't think I'll have alot of ideas to contribute here. But it definitely gives me a better idea what to look for. Just one more question if I may...
A fair number of metal tracks I listen to contain "choir-like" vocals, which often gives them a "symphonic" quality, like this track by the Japanese band Yousei Teikoku...
Would this be considered "symphonic-metal"? And if so, how is that different from prog-metal, if the latter also draws on classical influences?
Fyi, many Queensryche tracks also have a symphonic sound or quality to my ear. Though it's somewhat different than the above.
A fair number of metal tracks I listen to contain "choir-like" vocals, which often gives them a "symphonic" quality, like this track by the Japanese band Yousei Teikoku...
Would this be considered "symphonic-metal"? And if so, how is that different from prog-metal, if the latter also draws on classical influences?
Fyi, many Queensryche tracks also have a symphonic sound or quality to my ear. Though it's somewhat different than the above.
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Actually, I have one more follow-up question as well. I'm guessin from both of your comments above that growling is ok in prog-metal, provided it fits some of the other criteria mentioned above.
I ask because, as I mentioned above, many of the tracks posted here seem less growly than what's routinely posted in the other metal threads here.
I ask because, as I mentioned above, many of the tracks posted here seem less growly than what's routinely posted in the other metal threads here.
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phthora
Headphoneus Supremus
That is easier to answer. Prog metal has influences from classical music, incorporating structures, chord progressions, the tritone, transitions, use of melody, etc, but these are typically 'translated' into metal and use the standard drums, bass, and guitar as the foundation. With symphonic metal, they incorporate those elements, but preserve the use of classical instruments and their symphonic/orchestral parts sound well, like, symphonies and orchestras.
Growling is okay in prog metal, but that is a relatively new addition to the genre. Originally, most prog metal acts had more operatic vocals. Over time, with all genres, you get sort of a feedback loop where the bands originally influencing others start to get influenced by those that they have influenced. Genres blur a bit here, diverge into different genres there. Things change. Growling in prog metal is one of those things. So is the use of post-hardcore vocals and djenty riffs. It's to the point now where djent is even starting to be considered its own genre, rather than simply a style of tuning found in some death metal or prog metal stuff.
Interesting. Thanks again phthora (and koover) for your detailed responses. It definitely helps to clarify things, and give a little better idea what you're looking for.
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buonassi
Headphoneus Supremus
yes. First, for anything to be 'prog' it has to have a level of complexity - not overly busy, mind you - but the arrangement of the song can't be like a pop song (IE, intro, verse1, chorus, verse2, chorus, bridge, chorus, end). Rather it contains unconventional structuring and you end up with music that scatters verses and choruses, sometimes with variations. You may get a more complex bridge, or multiple bridges, or a half time section, or a complete drop out with just ethereal sounds playing. Some prog even carries a theme across multiple songs or an entire album. This is another hint that it might be prog.
Second, prog usually has unconventional time signatures, or mixed time signatures, or even overlaying polyrhythms (think tesseract, tool, meshuggah). Tempo changes are also a possibility.
Third - keys - keys and synths are almost always present with prog.
Lastly - musicianship. The caliber of musician in a prog band is able to run circles around most of the general rock bands out there. There is a technical prowess as you state! Yes.
now then.... what makes it prog 'metal'? well.....It's metal mixed with the three elements above - either partially, or all of those facets. When a band hits them all (ie Haken) it is rare, but something to take note of!
well put. Epica... they are symphonic metal for sure - but would you call them prog metal?
phthora
Headphoneus Supremus
Good point! It's metal plus these other things that makes it progressive metal. There is also progressive rock, progressive folk, progressive electronic, etc. There is even progressive death metal. They all start off with a different base.
On that note, I would definitely call Epica symphonic metal, but I may also call them progressive symphonic metal IF they have all those elements characteristic of progressive significantly more than the symphonic metal standard. I'm afraid I'm not very familiar with that particular band though. From what I hear dipping through some YouTube vids, they have some melodic death metal and folk mixed in with the symphonic and metal parts. I think that's all fairly common to symphonic metal though.
Yes! I hadn't really noticed it on my first pass. But there's fairly prolific use of keyboards on a number of the tracks.
Not sure I like it.
...But it's interesting.Users who are viewing this thread
