Oblivion | UltraSonic Studios
Jan 25, 2020 at 6:09 PM Post #466 of 7,478
The Citadel retains the speed of the Formula S but with a smoother feel on top. The harder feel I would characterize on solid state amps in general. I don’t think the sound signatures are quite the same but I suppose they could be similar if you took the Formula S and inserted a tube stage in the front end.

Before I give my comments I'd like to take an opportunity to thank everybody who has made reviews or even just some comments on their listening experiences, it is very interesting for me to read personally, and everybody has been very good with their words and descriptions. So thank you for making reviews and comments.

As to my response to the quote above, I would say no. The reason is that the harder feel is produced by a high use of gNFB. This produces low distortion, but at certain costs. I won't go into more detail here, but it is directly linked.

Now if you add a tube in front of this circuit, you don't remove that gNFB loop after it, so you don't remove the feel it produces.

The only way to change that feel is to not use gNFB at all. This opens up a world of new problems for the designer, presented with the scenario I personally made the choises I made.

But in conclusion it's not about what you add, but what tool you have used to achieve your goal. In the amp you describe the designer used gNFB and SS devices in amplification roles to achieve his goal of audio amplification, with all the upsides and downsides those come with.

Does anyone own either the Oblivion or Citadel as well as the GS-X mk2?
If so, do they share a good amount of similarities? I'm asking because I find more than a few some impressions reminding me of my GS-X mk2.

I google pic searched the insides of the GS-X mk2. Looking at that I'd say that amp does not share anything with Sonic's amps besides functioning as a driver for headphones, general purpose of circuit. Nothing else.

I don't see the connection between Oblivion and GSX mk2. Maybe speed and technicalities but treble on GSX mk2 has an etched grating quality to it where there is said to be just beautiful smooth treble on Oblivion. They might share a general neutral to bright trend in sound although I bet GSX mk2 is brighter.

Yes that etched grating quality is caused, again, by high use of gNFB. Only way to avoid that signature is to design open loop, not use gNFB at all.
 
Jan 25, 2020 at 6:46 PM Post #467 of 7,478
That’s really interesting about gNFB and I had no idea. It makes sense because of the recent trend associating amplifiers with low distortion measurements with good sound quality, however inaudible the distortion may have been in the first place. For the THX amps they sound clean but more like flat response studio monitors.

I think I was struggling to put the sound of the Citadel into words because it is relatively neutral. It amplifies the signal, lays out the soundstage, puts out what the recording has on offer and then paints it over with a pleasing tube sound that is not overdone.

I’m also interested in revisiting the HD800S at some point. The best I heard it was with the Cayin HA-300 which took it to another level and the headphones did benefit from the richness of that amp. On that combo the bass was not lacking at all but I was using Sonarworks with +1 on the bass boost.
 
Jan 25, 2020 at 10:27 PM Post #468 of 7,478
Really, the Oblivion has a forgiving top end that’s in between a tube amp and and solid state. It’s not etched and not bright but has great extension. It’s good for bright headphones but will not cover up badly recorded tracks like some tube amps.
 
Jan 27, 2020 at 8:12 AM Post #469 of 7,478
Tubelab George is the progenitor of this grid driver technology, incredibly knowledgeable about tubes and especially this grid current phenomenom. Most tubes eat grid current to some extent even while the grid is still negative. This is in part due to different parasitic capacitances inside the tube, between the different elements.

Old time radio transmitters used a tube cathode follower to drive the transmitter final tube, to provide current for the control grid on big pulses.

The grid drivers are simply FETs operating as source followers (FET version of cathode follower). So they just 'follow' the voltage, do not do anything to it, and provide current as needed.

When did someone first hit on the idea to use FET's as source followers instead of tube cathode followers
 
Jan 27, 2020 at 8:16 AM Post #470 of 7,478
Simply saying "lower distortion" over and over again doesn't often send the desired message of how much it really matters. This is of course because of the gNFB low distortion amps, which usually do not sound very lively or realistic. Sonic's amps are open loop AND low distortion. That's another animal in itself.

FET grid drivers and the open loop are 2 important distinguishing features of this amp's hybrid design.

To get open loops AND low distortion is the clever part, as is no gNFB AND low output impedance.

So the fast transient speed of the amp mentioned in the reviews can be explained by reference to these design features, and also the open accurate soundstage which has also been mentioned. In rejecting the traditional way of achieving low distortion and low impedance by the use of gNFB feedback loops the amp manages to achieve that real, live sound that has also been mentioned which could not have been achieved had gNFB been used because of the extra loop that the signal must travel, which inevitably has a negative impact on sound as in SS amps.

Some of these design features go to explain why the amp could not be driven to distort as Maxx found in his review.
 
Jan 27, 2020 at 8:55 AM Post #471 of 7,478
This thread is about Sonic's products and not general theory, but some of this might be very interesting to his customers and potential customers. If somebody is interested you can start a new thread (please link it to me in a private message) or just ask me in a private message. I'm happy to elaborate.

When did someone first hit on the idea to use FET's as source followers instead of tube cathode followers

Same afternoon as the first FET was made. Now in terms of putting FETs into "classic audio circuits", that would be the DIYAudio guys back when the forum was just new. The general idea is nothing new, the specific applications (what spot to use it in, and for what purpose) is the point.

Grid drivers were pioneered and popularized by Tubelab George (again, what a nice and knowledgeable person, truely a great person in the DIY scene), the gyrator plate loads by Wavebourne (same goes for him, a true legend in the scene by now).

I put these elements together in a balanced format, and made the output a parafeed type. Thus far parafeed was seen as an SE only thing, and output section gyrator loads were out of the question.

Also the idea of combining gyrator plate loads and CCS tails was out of the question for a long time. I had many a 10 page long arguments on this subject, people thought the whole thing wouldn't even produce audio output!

Spoiler, it does. And if you look at the theory behind, it obviously should work. But that subject is too large for this thread.

FET grid drivers and the open loop are 2 important distinguishing features of this amp's hybrid design.

If I had to say the most important, it would be open loop. The rest of the choices kind of flow from that point forward. The grid drive is very important, yes, forcing the balance is maybe more important and the horizontal load lines. These assure linearity despite no gNFB.

To get open loops AND low distortion is the clever part, as is no gNFB AND low output impedance.

Yes. Low output impedance comes from driving the OT primary (remember the OT is an "impedance lens") from a relatively low, few tens of ohms of impedance: the plate load gyrators!

The OT primary 'sees' two source followers driving it. That's a good spot to be in, you've got all the current you can eat right there.

So the fast transient speed of the amp mentioned in the reviews can be explained by reference to these design features, and also the open accurate soundstage which has also been mentioned. In rejecting the traditional way of achieving low distortion and low impedance by the use of gNFB feedback loops the amp manages to achieve that real, live sound that has also been mentioned which could not have been achieved had gNFB been used because of the extra loop that the signal must travel, which inevitably has a negative impact on sound as in SS amps.

Yes.

The gNFB loop lowers overall distortion to very very low numbers, but it changes the harmonics distributions. Distortion is made up of harmonics, they are multiples of the original signal. Say you input a 1kHz signal, then the amp adds some 2 kHz (this is 2H distortion), some 3kHz (this is 3H distortion) and so on.

8H and 9H are very very unnatural, these are ones that cause the sound to be "hard" or "bleak" or just unrealistic sounding. Get these OUT of the harmonic spectrum, and you get lively sound.

High order harmonics come in as a part of the gNFB tradeoff; the tradeoff is "lower THD" traded to "but tiny amounts of 7H, 8H and 9H appear". This is the "SS sound". It's caused by gNFB, not by the FETs or transistors in themselves.

Some of these design features go to explain why the amp could not be driven to distort as Maxx found in his review.

The amp does hard clip, oh yes. But not that easily with headphones at least.
 
Jan 27, 2020 at 2:55 PM Post #472 of 7,478
Thanks.

I do find the theory as it relates to this amp fascinating, especially as it is at a pivotal point in the development between the old style traditional designs and the new modern hybrid designs.
 
Jan 29, 2020 at 5:49 AM Post #473 of 7,478
You have 2 days left to get this incredible sounding amp before the price increase. The best I've heard Verite in. The same goes for HD800.

I've my eyes on a Citadel before the year is out.

IMG-5034.jpg
 
Jan 31, 2020 at 5:04 PM Post #478 of 7,478
It's been more than a month with Oblivion. Today is 1st Feb 2020. I wrote the review on 1st Jan 2020. :)

I've been using Oblivion everyday since I had it. Studio Six hardly have any air time. I spend about 3 weeks with HD800 on it and thoroughly love it. Then I swap headphone with my son and got Verite Open back and love it even more. Those beryllium drivers open up like never before.

I have my Redgum Rgi120enr black series 265w 4 ohms amp here powering my Axis Voicebox S speakers but for near field listening I really like Oblivion driving the Voicebox. Volume at 2pm and the image is startling !!!

Here's the Axis Voicebox S speakers winning the award.
13323540_570113409826362_3347627266356918391_o.jpg

The Redgum
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Here's my Oblivion driving it. Doing an A/B with the Redgum. I'll leave the Oblivion hook up to the speakers because it's a revelation. :)
IMG-4909.jpg

Strangely with speakers, there's not much noticeable difference between low and high impedance. If anything, I detect that low impedance works better so I left it at low.
 
Jan 31, 2020 at 5:29 PM Post #479 of 7,478
Strangely with speakers, there's not much noticeable difference between low and high impedance. If anything, I detect that low impedance works better so I left it at low.
The impedance switch only affects the headphone output. The speaker output is low impedance =)
 

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