[diamondears]

It does, at 1 or 2 o' clock. I'm just under the impression that the soundstage gets bigger on hi-gain.

@castleofargh
 Nah I'm starting to love it. With tubes these shine!

I'm under the impression that the sound will open up more if volume is at 2-3 o'clock. Remember that volume is a resistor.

In this audio realm cosmetics also plays a role in this audio market. 

I own the early gen jds 02 amp. The sound quality was great but I also wanted something more cosmetically pleasing. 

For the cost of the inexpensive objective amp I cannot complain because of the great sound. The Schiit product is definitely more pleasing to the eyes if your wanting a nice looking desk mount. 

I'd suggest settling for a decent affordable amp but try to put more money into a higher quality dac. 

I've run my tube dac/super rectifier (aprox $3000 setup)  with my objective amp and it was incredibly pleasing. That setup I could listen for hours and hours with no fatigue. Using the same inexpensive JDS amp with my Concero HD  was not even remotely close to the SQ I received from my tube dac.  Putting audio "ego" aside I would be quite certain that most would not be able to easily hear a difference in using a cheap JDS amplifier vs a much more $$$ amp when used with excellent source material and higher end dac.  

+1.

 

[Julo]

Hi there !

I just found out about this thread (and this forum actually) and made myself an account to explain my situation and see if any of you guys can enlighten me !!

I'm quite interested in audio but don't know a great deal about electronics so feel free to talk to me with simplified terms if possible !!

I own a Yamaha MCR-N560 at home and a pair of Sennheiser Momentum, I have some CDs that I listen to but also listen to music through my computer and Spotify a lot. A few month ago I had an issue with my PC sound card so I bought a creative X-Fi USB sound card, which if I'm correct works as a DAC and amp. So my current set up is my PC connected to the creative x-fi going to my stereo system from a RCA out to the aux in on the Yamaha.

So what I'm wondering is (sorry I'm bring terrible at going straight to the point): if I switched the creative for the ODAC, would I hear a noticeable sonic difference that is worth the money (through the stereo system speakers and/or headphones)?

I'm also wondering whether I would need the DAC+Amp combo or just the DAC? If I was to plug my PC into the DAC and then the DAC to my stereo, then the amp from the Yamaha would be used right ? And if I want to listen to music on headphones I would have to plug them into the stereo system? But then is there any advantage of using the O2 amp instead of the stereo system amp ?

Sorry once again I know this is a bit of a messy post but I'm not really used to being on forums ! Hope someone can help, cheers !!

 

[JacobLee89]

Hi there !

I just found out about this thread (and this forum actually) and made myself an account to explain my situation and see if any of you guys can enlighten me !!

I'm quite interested in audio but don't know a great deal about electronics so feel free to talk to me with simplified terms if possible !!

I own a Yamaha MCR-N560 at home and a pair of Sennheiser Momentum, I have some CDs that I listen to but also listen to music through my computer and Spotify a lot. A few month ago I had an issue with my PC sound card so I bought a creative X-Fi USB sound card, which if I'm correct works as a DAC and amp. So my current set up is my PC connected to the creative x-fi going to my stereo system from a RCA out to the aux in on the Yamaha.

So what I'm wondering is (sorry I'm bring terrible at going straight to the point): if I switched the creative for the ODAC, would I hear a noticeable sonic difference that is worth the money (through the stereo system speakers and/or headphones)?

I'm also wondering whether I would need the DAC+Amp combo or just the DAC? If I was to plug my PC into the DAC and then the DAC to my stereo, then the amp from the Yamaha would be used right ? And if I want to listen to music on headphones I would have to plug them into the stereo system? But then is there any advantage of using the O2 amp instead of the stereo system amp ?

Sorry once again I know this is a bit of a messy post but I'm not really used to being on forums ! Hope someone can help, cheers !!

 
The O2 amp is a very very plain sound signature amp, that does this "plain'ness" in - probably - the best possible way in it's price range. It won't do anything different than most other amps, just very well (balanced-like sound, and almost invisible quiet noise floor). You already have a YAMAHA for an amp, it's already good enough.
 
The ODAC is also of similar philosophy, so you'll have to ask yourself this question:
 
Do you have any notable noise?
 
For example, any humming/beeping/whirring sounds that do not belong on the music you listen to (sometimes when my processor is doing some hard processing I hear some extremely faint beeping when I'm plugged into the onboard sound card).
 
If you do, then you will benefit from an ODAC, since it has been designed (now updated to work even better on this front) to isolate noise from the PC's internals. Changing amps won't do anything to interference from the PC.
 
If you do not, then you are perfectly fine as you have an already capable sound system.
 
If you have tonnes of money, then what I said is potentially irrelevant.....

 

[214324]

Though don't take that "plain" as a negative. A good amp and/or DAC should be transparent. The only nuances in sound should be by your headphone selection (or EQ that you've applied).

 

[Julo]

Many thanks for the quick reply guys !

With my current set up I don't have any noise problem, I think the creative x-fi does a pretty good job.

I guess what I was wondering about really was the difference I would perceive between different DACs.
The set up I have works fine and I'm happy with it, but I was wondering if going for another DAC could improve the sound, if a better, "more plain" DAC would give me a better, more high fidelity sound ?

But I kinda feel like I wouldn't really notice any difference between the creative and the ODAC (or really slim one) and that could be wasted money...

 

[Bibo]

So what I'm wondering is (sorry I'm bring terrible at going straight to the point): if I switched the creative for the ODAC, would I hear a noticeable sonic difference that is worth the money (through the stereo system speakers and/or headphones)?

Which X-Fi USB do you have? If it was the X-Fi HD, it would already have a decent dac so you might not get a real benefit of buying an ODAC. The X-Fi Surround 5.1 pro USB is somewhat inferior. But in both cases you could also try using the built in dac of your Yamaha and bypass the X-Fi´s dac by connecting one the X-Fi´s digital outs to the corresponding digital in of yor Yamaha and see if it makes a difference.
 
Quote:
 

I'm also wondering whether I would need the DAC+Amp combo or just the DAC? If I was to plug my PC into the DAC and then the DAC to my stereo, then the amp from the Yamaha would be used right ? And if I want to listen to music on headphones I would have to plug them into the stereo system?

There are special desktop versions of O2/ODAC or single O2 with RCA outputs avaible where you could connect your Yamaha to.
You could also buy ODAC and O2 separately and connect the RCA out of the ODAC via Y-cable with both the O2 and your Yamaha.

But then is there any advantage of using the O2 amp instead of the stereo system amp ?

Depends on how good the headphone out of Yamaha actually is

 

[castleofargh]

Many thanks for the quick reply guys !

With my current set up I don't have any noise problem, I think the creative x-fi does a pretty good job.

I guess what I was wondering about really was the difference I would perceive between different DACs.
The set up I have works fine and I'm happy with it, but I was wondering if going for another DAC could improve the sound, if a better, "more plain" DAC would give me a better, more high fidelity sound ?

But I kinda feel like I wouldn't really notice any difference between the creative and the ODAC (or really slim one) and that could be wasted money...

I'll go with my favorite saying: if you don't have a problem, don't go looking for a solution.

there is magic in music, but not so much in devices.

 

[AlanU]

I guess what I was wondering about really was the difference I would perceive between different DACs.
The set up I have works fine and I'm happy with it, but I was wondering if going for another DAC could improve the sound, if a better, "more plain" DAC would give me a better, more high fidelity sound ?

But I kinda feel like I wouldn't really notice any difference between the creative and the ODAC (or really slim one) and that could be wasted money...

If you buy an objective amp and using your current dac configuration you may be underwhelmed or happy. 
 
Your source is very critical with any amp you'll ever purchase in your adventures in audio. Your subjective ears can easily determine if your going to be happy with your source when you use an objective amp.
 
Once you start to do comparisons between different dac's you'll hear differences. 
 
If you listen to string instruments/piano  you'll hear a longer tail in note decay using higher end dac's or when using tube gear. This may possibly be the music being hit with the gear's "colour" and "characteristics". However the difference in "engagement" will be black and white for realistic presentation. Of course the coloured sound from you headphones will also add to this "enjoyment".  
 
I'd definitely suggest the objective amp. As far as dac is concerned you mileage will vary as you critically analyze your current dac.

 

[Julo]

Bibo I use the X-fi HD USB !

Just to make sure I understand how it works:
When you plug your laptop or cellphone straight into the stereo system aux in, you're using the PC/phone's DAC right ? And having the PC go through the X-fi allows sound to go through a better quality DAC ?

But then if I plug the X-fi's digital out to the Yamaha's digital in, I'll only be using the PC to "provide" the source but then the sound will be "made" by the Yamaha's DAC and amp is that right ?

That could be a cool test to make to see if I can hear a difference between the two DACs !

castleofargh you're very right about that ! It's just that everytime I hear or read about some piece of gear I'm wondering how it could affect my system and whether or not it would improve it.. That's annoying really haha

I'm very pleased with the Yamaha MCR-N560, it's just that since I started using Spotify more intensively I read about DACs and how important they are when you play music from your laptop, and I just want to make sure I'm using the stereo to its potential and not compromising the sound with a not so good DAC for instance !

 

[AlanU]

I'm very pleased with the Yamaha MCR-N560, it's just that since I started using Spotify more intensively I read about DACs and how important they are when you play music from your laptop, and I just want to make sure I'm using the stereo to its potential and not compromising the sound with a not so good DAC for instance !

 
Typically mini stereo systems do not put much emphasis on the headphone amp section. 
 
There is alot of thing happening in the chain of events. Your  X-fi HD USB should have rca out. Using RCA cables you can use that for your "aux" . This way your simply amplifier analog signal so your bypassing the yamaha dac.
 
There is alot of "Magic" going on in components synergy. The DAC is absolutely critical in the translation of digital to analog signal. This is where there's alot of things going on in the chain of events. If your amplification is not up to the task your "magic" will also be lost. Resolution of your speakers / headphones will also be the final transducer to your ears. 
 
Pure speculation but I would imagine there would be a difference between your X-fi dac and Odac. I would think both of those units would do a decent job in digital conversion.  
 
When I change my dac with my Objective amplifier the difference between my $1000 burson da160, $850 Concero HD and my $3000 Space tech lab tube dac with super rectifier  is like 3 entirely different worlds. My jaw still drops when I use my tube dac and 02 objective amp.  If I would rate SQ in a subjective manner it would be my tube dac > burson da160 > Concero HD. 
 
There is always emphasis on "neutral" "neutral" and "neutral" sound but as every human ear is different the typical human somehow appreciates compression, overtones and harmonics.
 
Every headphone adds colour to the music so in most cases  system synergy plays a major role in the final sound quality "subjectively speaking". 
 
If your happy with your current setup just be prepared to get upgraditis as you audition different gear. This hobby is evil and can be addictive.

 

[Julo]

AlanU thanks for helping man !

I think there are lots of things to take into consideration also. I'm 21 years old still studying and live in a flat (which is why I went for a micro-chain). To be honest I didn't know about the ODAC two days ago, I just watched a video about it on YouTube and the idea of a really transparent sounding DAC/amp seemed appealing and it is in a budget I could afford. But the DAC/amp combo is still around the 260€ to get it shipped to France where I live. That's something I would be ready to pay if I knew I was going to enjoy it in my everyday listening experience but I don't want to spend this money on something unnecessary on the other hand !

I've never had the chance to listen to music through a really nice set up (by that I mean tube DAC like you have and great amp etc), I'm sure I'd be blown away by the result, and hopefully someday if I live in a house I can have a nice music room with a great set up.

But I think I need to be realistic about how much of a difference the ODAC would make on my current set up.

I'd like to have your thoughts about it, but my guess is in an A/B comparison I would notice the difference between my set up as it is and the ODAC, but maybe outside of that it wouldn't really be something I would notice as better sounding?

If the difference is only going to be subjective and not really one option actually delivering better sound than the other, then spending 260€ without being able to try it beforehand might be a bit risky...

 

[AlanU]

@AlanU thanks for helping man !

I think there are lots of things to take into consideration also. I'm 21 years old still studying and live in a flat (which is why I went for a micro-chain). To be honest I didn't know about the ODAC two days ago, I just watched a video about it on YouTube and the idea of a really transparent sounding DAC/amp seemed appealing and it is in a budget I could afford. But the DAC/amp combo is still around the 260€ to get it shipped to France where I live. That's something I would be ready to pay if I knew I was going to enjoy it in my everyday listening experience but I don't want to spend this money on something unnecessary on the other hand !

I've never had the chance to listen to music through a really nice set up (by that I mean tube DAC like you have and great amp etc), I'm sure I'd be blown away by the result, and hopefully someday if I live in a house I can have a nice music room with a great set up.

But I think I need to be realistic about how much of a difference the ODAC would make on my current set up.

I'd like to have your thoughts about it, but my guess is in an A/B comparison I would notice the difference between my set up as it is and the ODAC, but maybe outside of that it wouldn't really be something I would notice as better sounding?

If the difference is only going to be subjective and not really one option actually delivering better sound than the other, then spending 260€ without being able to try it beforehand might be a bit risky...

 
Please be sensible and just feed your yamaha by using RCA cables from your current x-fi DAC. Set your yamaha to "AUX".  
 
Talking about audio over the internet can be confusing.  Trust your ears and if your currently happy with the sound your getting with your yamaha rig ....stick with it. 
 
Try to go to your local "Brick 'n Mortar" shop where you can audition gear. For the price of the Objective amplifier it's quite amazing how inexpensive components from an electronics store can be compiled into something very good. The amplification is just as good as my Burson Virtuoso (again I was floored how incredibly clean and neutral amplification of this inexpensive amp). As long as you feed a good source to the amp..... scary good for cheap!!
 
As long as your amplifier is up to the task in feeding the headphones I'd spend your beans on a different pair of headphones or higher end DAC. For the price of 260 pounds your better off buying used gear locally IMO. 
 
New headphones will impact the sound in a big way.  The DAC will also have a large change in sound signature. I've listened to the objective amp/dac combo and it's fine and works well. I'm not that excited about the odac but it does the task of digital conversion. My inexpensive Audioengine D1 dac (feeds my A2 Audioengine speakers for my home PC)  does similar mundane task of converting digital as well. For the amount of $$$ you'd spend on a "shipped 02/odac combo" I'd suggest buying a used higher end set of headphones for more dramatic "change". Again my speculation is your current dac will not be inferior to an odac. 
 
Audio is all about "subjective". Your appreciation of certain characteristics of sound  is very personal and individual. The inexpensive Schiit Magni2 or Vali will work well as you feed it with a nice source. 
 
Methodically choose components as your "studies" is more critical than buying audio gear

 

[Julo]

AlanU I reckon this is what I needed to hear !
It's something that I can't really help doing, every once in a while I'll just start thinking about gear and getting new stuff and I start convincing myself I need it even though I was very happy with what I had in the first place.. Annoying me !!

I'm just gonna stick with what I have right now, my Yamaha system does a very nice job, I'm also very pleased with the Sennheiser Momentum headphones I own. I guess later on when I'll be able to afford the even "nicer" pieces of gear I'll start really looking into what DAC I want to use with what amp and what speakers etc.. But for now I guess I'm good to go !

Many thanks for helping out mate, it's really nice having such places to just have a chat about gear and get help from people ! Cheers for taking the time ☺

 

[AlanU]

@AlanU I reckon this is what I needed to hear !
It's something that I can't really help doing, every once in a while I'll just start thinking about gear and getting new stuff and I start convincing myself I need it even though I was very happy with what I had in the first place.. Annoying me !!

I'm just gonna stick with what I have right now, my Yamaha system does a very nice job, I'm also very pleased with the Sennheiser Momentum headphones I own. I guess later on when I'll be able to afford the even "nicer" pieces of gear I'll start really looking into what DAC I want to use with what amp and what speakers etc.. But for now I guess I'm good to go !

Many thanks for helping out mate, it's really nice having such places to just have a chat about gear and get help from people ! Cheers for taking the time ☺

 
At this moment the biggest impact in sound would be to buy a different set of headphones. I'm just assuming your Yamaha is feeding your current Momentum headphones with ease since they are more of a mobile headphone (18 ohms) . The resolution of your headphones may not benefit in a large scale if you spend alot of $$$ on a new DAC. Getting different headphones will be a different flavor in sound as long as your pleased with your current dac/amp setup. 
 
If you listen to music at a reasonable volume level and your not surpassing well over 50% on the volume knob and not clipping you may be fine with other headphones that are harder to drive. If your a BASS head into electronica you'll probably hear little difference on certain music genre's. However if your into female jazz vocals, piano, string instruments you will probably be able to pin point the difference alot more as you swap dacs/amp. 
 
Try your yamaha in "aux" mode as you feed it with your dac via RCA cables. Tell us your findings. 
 
On a budget the inexpensive schiit amps or 02 amp will deliver clean power to your headphones. If your wanting more organic natural sound you should be getting the sound signature most from your headphones and DAC. 
 
I do like tubes as it adds harmonics to the music....yes it adds pleasant distortion that most human ears appreciate. Listening to music is subjective and I find tube gear to be much more engaging with realism.  Whichever way you look at audio gear heads there is typically one component that will add colour to the music. This neutral "amp/dac" sounds fantastic but in the end somewhere in the chain is making subjective ears happy. I personally do not know many friends loving dead on "flat" neutral sound using studio monitors (used in mastering) for a chillout session in relaxing.  All headphone companies colour their sound with a signature "house sound" or specific unique sound to the model of the headphone. 
 
I love my tube dac setup and manipulate the source by rolling/changing tubes. In the 2 channel world some use neutral high end dacs and colour the sound with a tube preamp and powerful neutral solid state amp. Some use a neutral DAC and colour the sound with a tube amplifier (customize subjective sound swapping tubes).
 
The beauty of the objective amp/odac is that it's an inexpensive system that delivers neutral sound.  The Odac is doing  a decent job in it's task. If per say you own an objective amp already I'd suggest getting the best dac possible within your budget to maximize sound quality. I'm not into playing with equalizers so I'd resort to finding headphones that works well with the music genre I listen too. 
 
Again... my jds 02 amp really surprised me in how well is performed as I fed it with excellent source. With my tube dac I found the sound to be extremely natural and organic with my hd650 and Hd800. Of course I can step up the sweet mids by using different headphones or buying a tube amp. This stuff never ends. The difference between my Burson Virtuoso and 02 amp using my tube dac is so subtle it's not funny...... source is everything since the 02 amp is very good in performing it's task.

 

[Julo]

AlanU Having the Creative x-fi connected to the Yamaha through the aux in with RCA cables is how I have it set currently. From what I've been told earlier, plugging the X-fi to the Yamaha through Audio optical would let me use the Yamaha's DAC instead of the DAC from the X-fi ? Could that be interesting to try ??

When I'm not playing music through the Yamaha's speakers I usually plug my headphones in the Creative's headphones out, maybe I should try plugging the headphones in the Yamaha's out to see if I can hear a difference.

I think it could be a good thing to wait, and when I have a nice budget to dedicate to audio I'll take the time to try and compare gear and see what kind of DAC I want to use and see if I want a clean amp or one that adds a colour and everything.. I went with a mini chain for the convenience of having everything in one piece of gear in the first place, and as far as I know the Yamaha I own does a really nice job amongst mini chains and it was the one I preferred over the other ones I tried (some Denon, Pioneer etc).

And same for the Momentum headphones ! Basically I bought the gear I liked the most within the budget I had, and right now I don't have more money to put into and I'm still happy with everything so that should do for a while !

What I was wondering about when I first wrote here was whether the creative x-fi could be a "weak point" in my set up and if an DAC upgrade could improve the result but I think the ODAC wouldn't really represent an upgraded, just something different (and I'm not even sure I'd hear a difference).

BTW, do you know anything about the Apogee Groove ? Does it have the same kind of plain and transparent philosophy as the Objective gear or does it have its own sound features ? Just wondering about it !