O2 AMP + ODAC
Jul 30, 2015 at 5:58 PM Post #4,561 of 5,671
i don't have any tube amplifiers on hand or even a soldering iron, but I'm skeptical that they actually DO sound any different, if the following conditions are met:

"There are some obvious things that affect tube power amps - like lower damping and the phase shift and other phase issues due to the output transformers. There are also the much higher levels of second harmonic distortion, which give much of the distinctive sound to low-feedback triode amps. However, neither of these really applies to the Lyr. And the overload characteristics of tubes are way different - but that shouldn't matter if you aren't overloading them."

 
You really should listen to a few tube power amps and compare them for yourself. While I've certainly heard a few tube preamps that sound relatively uncolored, even to the point where it isn't obvious that they do in fact use tubes, I've never heard a tube power amp of any topology where it isn't obvious that you are, in fact, listening to tubes. And, from a purely product perspective, since tubes are somewhat more difficult to design for these days, and their need for a high voltage power supply increases the cost of building tube designs, and the tubes themselves cost more, there would be very little reason to produce tube products unless they sounded different. (If they really sounded the same, then it would be easier and cheaper to not bother, and to stick with solid state designs.)
 
Jul 30, 2015 at 6:07 PM Post #4,562 of 5,671
   
You really should listen to a few tube power amps and compare them for yourself. While I've certainly heard a few tube preamps that sound relatively uncolored, even to the point where it isn't obvious that they do in fact use tubes, I've never heard a tube power amp of any topology where it isn't obvious that you are, in fact, listening to tubes. And, from a purely product perspective, since tubes are somewhat more difficult to design for these days, and their need for a high voltage power supply increases the cost of building tube designs, and the tubes themselves cost more, there would be very little reason to produce tube products unless they sounded different. (If they really sounded the same, then it would be easier and cheaper to not bother, and to stick with solid state designs.)


It's not hard to imagine a scenario where expectation bias, aesthetic preference and nostalgia for the industrial era, etc., creates a market.​
 
But yes, I'm hoping to hear my friend's Little Dot soon.  I'm still curious as to what kinds of distortion correlate to a "smoother" sound or increased soundstage, etc.  Doesn't being out of phase "compress" a soundstage?
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 4:12 AM Post #4,566 of 5,671
 the natural misbehavior state of SS amps doesn't sound nice, that's the main difference with most tubes, tubes can suck a lot and still sound rather euphonic or at least soft. you can use the wrong amp with wrong gain for a transducer and clip the hell out of the amp, that may still sound "interesting" on some tubes. it would be clear as day that you messed up on a SS amp.
also I can't help but think that many of the tube lovers are just looking for something that rolls off the trebles, there are a lot of tube amp with reasonably good distortion specs that should not sound so much like a typical old time tube at all, yet people don't seem to reject those.
of course there is also the very serious possibility that people start to feel softness and tube sound as soon as they see a tube, and a tube glowing at the top of a fully SS amp would please them just the same. ^_^
placebo can be very powerful.
 
wouldn't a good old impulse response from "nice sounding" tube amp convolved while using a transparent SS amp be the ideal way to the tube sound? or are there drawbacks to convolution? I tend to be satisfied with only using EQ and some crossfeed on headphones, but I'm only me.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 10:10 AM Post #4,567 of 5,671
 
It's not hard to imagine a scenario where expectation bias, aesthetic preference and nostalgia for the industrial era, etc., creates a market.​
 
But yes, I'm hoping to hear my friend's Little Dot soon.  I'm still curious as to what kinds of distortion correlate to a "smoother" sound or increased soundstage, etc.  Doesn't being out of phase "compress" a soundstage?

 
You're thinking of phase as a binary choice (in phase / out of phase); when you have one channel "out of phase", like when you connect the wires backwards on one speaker, what you actually have is all frequencies out of phase by an equal 180 degrees between the channels. This causes sounds with long wavelengths that are common to both channels (bass) to cancel out, which is why the bass goes away, and in general messes with our direction perception at higher frequencies. The usual effect is that things sound very odd, you can't locate where anything is, and sounds that should be located in the center sound almost the opposite - like they're NOT in the center, but you can't figure out exactly where they ARE. (it usually doesn't "compress" the sound stage; rather the opposite, it sort of shreds it.)
 
The reason that this happens is that our brains use the phase relationship between a given sound in the two channels as one of the important cues for determining location. If the phase shifts between channels are somewhat less than 180 degrees, or if the amounts of signal involved aren't equal, and if they vary with frequency, you can produce all sorts of alterations in the perceived sound stage. (This is how all of those cool "surround synthesizers" work - by carefully faking the phase shifts normally caused by differences in source location to trick your brain into hearing sounds coming from different locations. Differences in amplitude are one major cue, and the next most important one is differences in phase.) One common (and simple) trick is to take just a little bit of the left and right channel, invert the phase of each, and add back into the other channel. Doing this with a small fraction of the entire signal tends to make the sound stage seem wider and "push" some sounds "out past the left and right speakers". Doing it selectively with only certain frequencies, or varying it by frequency, tends to "spread out" the sound stage (this is the technology behind the Carver Sonic Holography process - among many others).
 
While doing this in a carefully controlled fashion can produce specific results, simply randomly shifting various frequencies can sort of "swirl the sound stage around", in sometimes interesting ways - which is why, when you apply a matrix decoder (which is mostly phase-based), to stereo sound, it often creates "synthetic surround" - because the phase shifts used by the decoder interact with the phase differences in the original recording to produce shifts in the perceived sound stage. (The decoder "decodes" the random phase shifts in the source material as if they were actually information encoded there.) However, when something like an output transformer, or a too-small coupling capacitor, introduces some frequency-dependent phase shift, the result can be a sort of subtle rearrangement of the sound stage.
 
Many tube devices, some more than others, also tend to produce a lot of second harmonic distortion. (If you can't hear the distortion, then it doesn't matter which harmonics you aren't hearing; however, if there is enough distortion to hear, the different harmonics produce different audible results.) Third harmonic distortion, which solid state amps tend to produce a lot of when they clip, sounds harsh. Second harmonic distortion sounds more mellow. When there's significant second harmonic distortion at midrange frequencies, it can actually make vocals seem clearer and more intelligible; and adding second harmonics at higher frequencies makes them seem to have "more sparkle"; and adding second harmonics to very low bass, especially in situations where the speakers or amp can't produce enough of the primary frequency involved, will make it sound like there's more bass. (Notice how all this coincides with the terms people often use to describe the way tube equipment sounds.)
 
Most tube devices also have what's called "a monotonic distortion curve" - which is uncommon in solid state devices. What this means is simply that the distortion increases more or less linearly with loudness (the louder you play it the more distortion you get). Solid state equipment usually does NOT act like this. In a typical piece of solid state equipment, the distortion remains inaudible low at all low to normal volume levels then, at some specific point, jumps up suddenly as you approach clipping. Interestingly, our brains usually associate distortion with "loudness" (which is why a 1 watt table radio can seem to be sooooo loud).
 
Now, remembering this, think about what happens when you play a typical 15 watt single ended triode amplifier and an "equivalent" solid state amp. The triode amp puts out 1 watt @ 1% THD and 10 watts at 10% THD; the solid state amp puts out 1 watt @ 0.005% THD and 10 watts at, perhaps, 0.01% THD. Because the distortion produced by the triode is audible, and becomes more audible at higher levels, it tends to exaggerate the loudness difference between them. (Even though the actual difference in loudness between 1 watt and 10 watts is a fixed, the perceived difference between 1w/1% and 10w/10% is greater than the perceived difference between 1w/0.005% and 10w/0.01%; because the higher distortion at 10 watts makes it seem proportionally louder than it really is; this makes the music you're playing sound "more dynamic" on the tube amp because, even though the dynamic range measures the same, we perceive it as being greater.) This is almost certainly why many people "hear" low powered tube amps as "sounding more powerful" than their ratings would suggest - it's a sort of "psychoacoustic dynamic range expander".
 
(Note that, while both of these effects may sound pleasant, and may even improve the listening experience for some people, they are technically inaccuracies - aka distortion. Incidentally, there are several pieces of studio equipment, and plugins for modern DAWs, that allow you to deliberately add or "inject" second harmonic distortion, used for deliberately producing the effect I described.)
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 12:12 PM Post #4,568 of 5,671
Very interesting and informative post! Thanks!

I'm still skeptical about second-order harmonics, at least in the context of headphone amplifiers. 300ohm Sennheisers take what, 200-300mw to reach rock concert levels? The flagship HD800's are only rated to withstand 500mw. It would have to be a pretty under-powered headphone amp to have significant distortion at that level, right? (I'm not saying clipping doesn't happen with solid-state mobile devices or computer interfaces, but this is Head-fi...)

Edit: The Little Dot Mk III claims 0.15% THD at 80mW. That's around 115 dB for the HD800, if my math is right.

Is there an easy way to measure phase-variation vs frequency? It sounds like I would be more interested in something like an SPL Phonitor.

How easy is it to inject second-order harmonics and phase alteration into a solid state design?
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 1:58 PM Post #4,569 of 5,671
Very interesting and informative post! Thanks!

I'm still skeptical about second-order harmonics, at least in the context of headphone amplifiers. 300ohm Sennheisers take what, 200-300mw to reach rock concert levels? The flagship HD800's are only rated to withstand 500mw. It would have to be a pretty under-powered headphone amp to have significant distortion at that level, right? (I'm not saying clipping doesn't happen with solid-state mobile devices or computer interfaces, but this is Head-fi...)

Edit: The Little Dot Mk III claims 0.15% THD at 80mW. That's around 115 dB for the HD800, if my math is right.

Is there an easy way to measure phase-variation vs frequency? It sounds like I would be more interested in something like an SPL Phonitor.

How easy is it to inject second-order harmonics and phase alteration into a solid state design?

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm
it gives you the maximum value in db, below the original signal(so below the actual music). you remove that value to the actual loudness of the signal, and that's how loud the distortions can be. I wouldn't count on 0.01db precision for those stuff, also you never know if the quoted distortion is a tiny little spike in the bass where it won't really change much to the sound, or a wide spread carnage over frequencies. but you get a small sense of resolution.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 2:49 PM Post #4,570 of 5,671
Do you guys think the O2 or the Magni is a better value for the money?  The magni has more power although I'd never really push it past 11 o'clock unless I was listening to some poorly leveled video on youtube.  I'll probably get the O2 for $70 or I might just spend extra and get a Magni 2.  I want a headphone amp with more usable range without having to run my Audio through a Schiit Sys as a finer volume control/attenuator.  And the new Magni has gain control and of course so does the O2.  Also I hate moving my amplifier from my desk to my bed (It's only a few feet away but I'm a lazy person.)
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 2:56 PM Post #4,571 of 5,671
Very interesting and informative post! Thanks!

I'm still skeptical about second-order harmonics, at least in the context of headphone amplifiers. 300ohm Sennheisers take what, 200-300mw to reach rock concert levels? The flagship HD800's are only rated to withstand 500mw. It would have to be a pretty under-powered headphone amp to have significant distortion at that level, right? (I'm not saying clipping doesn't happen with solid-state mobile devices or computer interfaces, but this is Head-fi...)

Edit: The Little Dot Mk III claims 0.15% THD at 80mW. That's around 115 dB for the HD800, if my math is right.

Is there an easy way to measure phase-variation vs frequency? It sounds like I would be more interested in something like an SPL Phonitor.

How easy is it to inject second-order harmonics and phase alteration into a solid state design?

 
The answer is - it depends. If you look at the distortion curves for most solid state power amplifiers, you will find that, somewhere above "zero", they start out pretty low, remain low until somewhere near clipping, and then rise suddenly as they near clipping. However, if you look down near zero, you will see that distortion curve start to rise again on many amplifiers, because of things like minute amounts of noise and crossover notch distortion that only become a significant part of the signal at very low levels. (So some solid state amps have the highest distortion at very high levels and at very low levels - where you would be using them with headphones.) Now, for most tube amps, while they typically have a distortion curve that rises more or less linearly with power at higher levels, many never actually drop to very low levels of distortion at any level, and some may even rise at lower levels. (So a tube amp that is 0.15% THD at 80 mW could be 0.15% at 5 mW, or it could be 0.05% at 5 mW, or it could be 1% at 5 mW - there's no way to really tell without seeing the actual measurements.)
 
Remember that most headphone amps are designed to deliver very little power. (And a 500 mW amplifier delivering 100 mW is working just as hard as a 500 watt amplifier delivering 125 watts.) 
 
The Phonitor uses deliberate phase shift and frequency-dependent channel mixing to simulate the sound of speakers in a room via headphones - so someone in a studio can hear what their mix would sound like through speakers - but using headphones. It is not intended to add distortion or coloration in the conventional sense.
 
To answer your question: It's relatively easy to deliberately cause phase shift - and to deliberately produce second harmonic distortion and add it back into the signal (using solid state electronics, or using software, as with many of the editor plugins which do it). Some devices that do so use actual tubes, others use solid state circuits designed to mimic the electrical characteristics of tubes, and still other use software running on a DSP processor to do it mathematically.) Some editor plugins even simulate the sound of several specific tubes (you get to pick which tube number to simulate, how hard to drive it, how heavily to load it, how much to overload it, etc.)
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 3:25 PM Post #4,572 of 5,671
  Do you guys think the O2 or the Magni is a better value for the money?  The magni has more power although I'd never really push it past 11 o'clock unless I was listening to some poorly leveled video on youtube.  I'll probably get the O2 for $70 or I might just spend extra and get a Magni 2.  I want a headphone amp with more usable range without having to run my Audio through a Schiit Sys as a finer volume control/attenuator.  And the new Magni has gain control and of course so does the O2.  Also I hate moving my amplifier from my desk to my bed (It's only a few feet away but I'm a lazy person.)


I briefly had a Magni 2 and thought it sounded horrible, but that is a subjective impression, so take it FWIW.  The O2 just has a really awkward design.  It's not sure if it's a desktop or a portable amp, and you have to pay extra to put the inputs in logical places.  I'd recommend seeing if you can find a Dacport somewhere.
 
Edit: I think the O2 is a safer bet if you're only choosing between those two.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 3:33 PM Post #4,573 of 5,671
  http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm
it gives you the maximum value in db, below the original signal(so below the actual music). you remove that value to the actual loudness of the signal, and that's how loud the distortions can be. I wouldn't count on 0.01db precision for those stuff, also you never know if the quoted distortion is a tiny little spike in the bass where it won't really change much to the sound, or a wide spread carnage over frequencies. but you get a small sense of resolution.

 
Yep, that's what I used.  While 0.15% looks really high for a modern amplifier, the commonly accepted threshold of audibility for THD is around 1% (-40dB).  Other forms of distortion, such as IMD and crossover distortion are far more objectionable.  An amp can have low THD and still sound horrible.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 3:54 PM Post #4,574 of 5,671
   
The answer is - it depends. If you look at the distortion curves for most solid state power amplifiers, you will find that, somewhere above "zero", they start out pretty low, remain low until somewhere near clipping, and then rise suddenly as they near clipping. However, if you look down near zero, you will see that distortion curve start to rise again on many amplifiers, because of things like minute amounts of noise and crossover notch distortion that only become a significant part of the signal at very low levels. (So some solid state amps have the highest distortion at very high levels and at very low levels - where you would be using them with headphones.) Now, for most tube amps, while they typically have a distortion curve that rises more or less linearly with power at higher levels, many never actually drop to very low levels of distortion at any level, and some may even rise at lower levels. (So a tube amp that is 0.15% THD at 80 mW could be 0.15% at 5 mW, or it could be 0.05% at 5 mW, or it could be 1% at 5 mW - there's no way to really tell without seeing the actual measurements.)
 
Remember that most headphone amps are designed to deliver very little power. (And a 500 mW amplifier delivering 100 mW is working just as hard as a 500 watt amplifier delivering 125 watts.) 
 
The Phonitor uses deliberate phase shift and frequency-dependent channel mixing to simulate the sound of speakers in a room via headphones - so someone in a studio can hear what their mix would sound like through speakers - but using headphones. It is not intended to add distortion or coloration in the conventional sense.
 
To answer your question: It's relatively easy to deliberately cause phase shift - and to deliberately produce second harmonic distortion and add it back into the signal (using solid state electronics, or using software, as with many of the editor plugins which do it). Some devices that do so use actual tubes, others use solid state circuits designed to mimic the electrical characteristics of tubes, and still other use software running on a DSP processor to do it mathematically.) Some editor plugins even simulate the sound of several specific tubes (you get to pick which tube number to simulate, how hard to drive it, how heavily to load it, how much to overload it, etc.)


I realize that you're a "member of the trade," but are you able to give an example of a tube headphone amp with THD that rises to or exceeds 1% at a "normal" listening level?  Do you agree that this is a good threshold of audibility?  I'd be willing to grant that it might be lower for headphones, but I think -50dB or less is stretching it.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 4:51 PM Post #4,575 of 5,671
 
I realize that you're a "member of the trade," but are you able to give an example of a tube headphone amp with THD that rises to or exceeds 1% at a "normal" listening level?  Do you agree that this is a good threshold of audibility?  I'd be willing to grant that it might be lower for headphones, but I think -50dB or less is stretching it.

 
Honestly, I'm really not supposed to talk about specific brands... besides which, I'm really more of a fan of solid state amps, so I don't know that much about individual current tube models in detail anyway. However, considering the fact that many tube headphone amps are transformerless, and most small tubes aren't capable of delivering very much current when connected directly to a load, I suspect that many may have much higher distortion than you might think.... and their distortion is going to vary considerably depending on the impedance and efficiency of the headphones you connect them to.
 
As far as "thresholds of audibility", that is a much stickier question than you might think. I would definitely agree that 1%, or even a a little more, would be the threshold above which an amp would sound "obviously distorted". However, I've certainly heard amps with far lower distortion than that which still had distinctive "sound signatures" - which leads me to say that amounts of certain types of distortion far below that MAY still be audible under some circumstances. There's a distinct difference between "the amount of distortion which makes the signal sound distorted" and "the amount of distortion that may impart a slight 'sonic signature'". The other thing is that there are all sorts of different types of distortion - and each sounds different... (With a given signal, and a given device, 1% second harmonic would probably be inaudible, or even slightly pleasant, while 1% third harmonic would be quite annoying, 1% of the seventh harmonic would be far worse, and even 0.1% of a totally unrelated tone - which also qualifies as distortion - would be very obvious and very annoying.) You could probably get me to take a bet that anything less than about 0.01% of almost any harmonic distortion would almost certainly be inaudible but, beyond that, it really depends on a lot of things.....
 
(Generalizations can often be too general.... You wouldn't even taste 1% sawdust in your breakfast cereal, but 1% cyanide would be enough to wipe out your entire block.)
 

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