O2 AMP + ODAC
Nov 17, 2014 at 10:51 PM Post #3,646 of 5,671
 
  Hello guys, 
I finally got my O2 and i used it for about 5 days. I really like it :)  So far i used it with my HD600 and DT990 Pros (250omhs) and i can say it made both headphones sound more natural (which i didn't expect with the DT990s)  and more detailed. However i didn't hear a HUGE difference or that the headphones NEED the amplification since i don't believe it's a night/day difference. 
My DAC is the crappy PC on-board DAC, so my question is: will the Odac improve even more the sound quality or i should expect the same improvement?

I suggest get an excellent DAC. It's where the "tweaking" happens. Suggest also to get a DAC with multiple digital filter options that you can toggle while listening to your music. There are digital-sounding filters, analogue-sounding, and there's somewhere in between...:) 


I suggest the opposite ^_^.
to me most DACs should and will sound about the same and tweaking should happen with the headphone's choice(or some EQ). 
having several filter choices is like having a choice between good filtering and bad ones. I trust the engineer making the DAC to test and find out what system offers the best result. but of course I'm thinking maximum fidelity when I think DAC. others do believe that DACs have to sound differently just like amps.
 
Nov 17, 2014 at 11:42 PM Post #3,647 of 5,671
Get the O2. It all depends on your budget, but I think in term of value, nothing beats the O2 in that price range. I've been without my ODAC for 3 weeks and have to make do with the SteelSeries soundcard. Def. not the stuff for music.
 
Nov 18, 2014 at 1:32 AM Post #3,648 of 5,671
I suggest the opposite ^_^.
to me most DACs should and will sound about the same and tweaking should happen with the headphone's choice(or some EQ). 
having several filter choices is like having a choice between good filtering and bad ones. I trust the engineer making the DAC to test and find out what system offers the best result. but of course I'm thinking maximum fidelity when I think DAC. others do believe that DACs have to sound differently just like amps.

I do think sound is made where signal converts from mechanical to electric and vice versa.
Sound waves to mic, it's the first step.
Back than, vinyl groves to voltage via turntable head.
Today there's no such step and we go from voltage to sound waves via speakers.
Anything in the middle if decently designed, should have minor effects.
That's the engineer in me talking :)

Despite that, even if I cannot tell much differences, I do feel fatigue when listening certain components, which I do not feel with others.
That is pretty repeatable experience.
 
Nov 18, 2014 at 1:42 AM Post #3,649 of 5,671
 
I suggest the opposite ^_^.
to me most DACs should and will sound about the same and tweaking should happen with the headphone's choice(or some EQ). 
having several filter choices is like having a choice between good filtering and bad ones. I trust the engineer making the DAC to test and find out what system offers the best result. but of course I'm thinking maximum fidelity when I think DAC. others do believe that DACs have to sound differently just like amps.


Not with my DACs. There are differences between selectable filters in DACs...well, some DACs. Your recording, player and HP has to be up to it though.
 
Engineer decides which filter is best---shouldn't the decision maker be us who will listen to the music and use the gears that we choose?
 
Nov 18, 2014 at 2:27 AM Post #3,650 of 5,671
 
Not with my DACs. There are differences between selectable filters in DACs...well, some DACs. Your recording, player and HP has to be up to it though.
 
Engineer decides which filter is best---shouldn't the decision maker be us who will listen to the music and use the gears that we choose?

 
I think the point was filtering should be done by EQ or by the specific headphone to get the SQ you desire. DACs and amps should be transparent or unfiltered at all. The idea of O2+ODAC is a wire with gain between the music and the headphone. Coloration should be done on either ends and not in between.
 
Nov 18, 2014 at 2:45 AM Post #3,651 of 5,671
 
 
Engineer decides which filter is best---shouldn't the decision maker be us who will listen to the music and use the gears that we choose?

 
Only if they want to think about it...
 
Some prefer to roll many variables and turn it into a mad science project:
Roll DAC * Roll DAC filters * Roll Amp * Roll tubes * Roll opamps * Roll cables * Roll headphone pads...
 
Some prefer simplicity - "If it isn't broken, don't fix it":
Transparent DAC + Transparent Amp + Headphone Sound Signature (All Stock)
 
or something in between.
 
De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum 
"There can be no disputing matters of taste and colors."
 
Nov 18, 2014 at 3:36 AM Post #3,652 of 5,671
   
Only if they want to think about it...
 
Some prefer to roll many variables and turn it into a mad science project:
Roll DAC * Roll DAC filters * Roll Amp * Roll tubes * Roll opamps * Roll cables * Roll headphone pads...
 
Some prefer simplicity - "If it isn't broken, don't fix it":
Transparent DAC + Transparent Amp + Headphone Sound Signature (All Stock)
 
or something in between.
 
De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum 
"There can be no disputing matters of taste and colors."


Completely agree. I just want to roll DAC filters...:) One of the filters should be transparent, I agree. But my DAC now, oh wow, there are 5 filters on them that I consider transparent...:)...don't know which one is actually the truly transparent one. With all 5, the sound changes as I change my upstream gear.
 
Nov 18, 2014 at 1:43 PM Post #3,653 of 5,671
  Hello guys, 
I finally got my O2 and i used it for about 5 days. I really like it :)  So far i used it with my HD600 and DT990 Pros (250omhs) and i can say it made both headphones sound more natural (which i didn't expect with the DT990s)  and more detailed. However i didn't hear a HUGE difference or that the headphones NEED the amplification since i don't believe it's a night/day difference. 
My DAC is the crappy PC on-board DAC, so my question is: will the Odac improve even more the sound quality or i should expect the same improvement?

 
when you say your dac is an on-board pc dac, im assuming that youre connecting your new O2 to the computer via the headphone jack? if so, your not only using your onboard dac, but are infact using both the onboard dac and the onboard amp - the signal coming out of the headphone jack is already post amplification, and passing that signal through the O2 is infact "double amping".
hypothetically, if there was a way to change the computers settings that would make the headphone jack a line-out, and the signal came directly from the dac to the output (bypassing the onboard amp), then you could tell the dac and amp apart, because you would use the O2 as a single amp - and maybe youd discover it was actually the onboard amp that was crappy. however, i have no idea if such an option exists.
 
would the Odac improve the sound quality? well the odac connects to the pc via usb cable, it doesnt receive a signal, it receives data. that data is converted to a signal (Digital to Analog Converter) which is passed clean onto the amp. the idea behind the Objective bunch is that theyre meant to do these things as transparently and accurately as possible. so if your onboard dac or amp are infact as crappy as you say they are, the Odac will definitely give you a more accurate sound. i believe thats what most O2 users would call quality (although ofcourse i may be wrong).
 
on a personal note, i think the recording/mixing quality, and the file quality are the ones that make the most difference. when i decided on getting an external dac, it was because my headphone jack was hissy and it was driving me mad. other than that hiss, i cant say the difference blew my mind, but it was definitely worth it in my own, very humble opinion. ive been using the O2 and Odac for over a year and have no complaints. 
 
 
   
to me most DACs should and will sound about the same and tweaking should happen with the headphone's choice(or some EQ). 

 
+1
  The idea of O2+ODAC is a wire with gain between the music and the headphone. Coloration should be done on either ends and not in between.

 
my thoughts exactly
 
   
 
Some prefer to roll many variables and turn it into a mad science project:
Roll DAC * Roll DAC filters * Roll Amp * Roll tubes * Roll opamps * Roll cables * Roll headphone pads...
 

 
some would rather have control over the process =]
 
different approaches, but which is actually more like a science project? which one may be more cost effective? does that matter? or is it all just about having fun? would a new toy make me as happy as some new music? ahh the questions we face 
tongue_smile.gif
 
 
Nov 18, 2014 at 7:41 PM Post #3,654 of 5,671
I think many assume that there is a DAC that fits all---100% transparent. No. And the reason is each and all DACs use a digital filter. That digital filter can never be 100% transparent like vinyl gear. This is the main consequence of using digital technology. At any price.

Therefore, every DAC introduces a tweak on the recording, it's just the gravity that's different with each DAC. That tweak is due to the DAC chip, implementation and the DAC filter used.

Now, assuming everything else equal, the most influential factor to the sound is the DAC filter. This is why every DAC using the same type of DAC filter has a similar sound quality/characteristic. In fact the most consistent influence in a DAC's sound characteristic is the DAC filter.

What many considers as the most transparent, objectively, is what's commonly known as the linear phase filter, which is used in our beloved ODAC.

But as in the case of anything digital, there's a trade-off, and, in the case of linear phase filter, that would be pre-ringing and post-ringing of certain frequencies especially in the uppermost frequencies. So even the linear phase would sound "digitally", though perfect and, in fact, the best, IMHO, in terms of transparency and, as I said, measurements.

So, if we use another filter that removes those pre-ringing and/or post-ringing, there's nothing wrong with it as in fact we're trying to even improve the close perfect, objectively, linear phase. But as there's trade-off in anything digital, again, 100% transparent isn't possible.

So using another digital filter to remove/reduce those pre and post ringings is still not 100% transparent, BUT could be closer to your subjective measurements based on the music you listen to and prefer. This preference is different in every person. So different filters, IMHO, should be interchangeable in a DAC.

Personally, I prefer the minimum phase filter, because it removes the pre-ringing, which IMHO is the main reason for that "digitally" sound. This filter doesn't remove post-ringing, which for me is alright because real live analogue sound has post-ringing as well (think echoes, reverberations, and the like). However, as said, there's a trade-off, and in the case of minimum phase filter, that would be time domain differences/delays and slight-roll-off of the upper frequencies. In my ears, these trade-off doesn't make the sound "digitally", it just makes the sound a tiny bit more "scattered", for lack of better term. On the lower registers/frequencies, this makes the bass bit more/bigger. On the upper frequencies, I can't discern it much, and I think that's because of the un-corrected and existing post-ringing, which offsets the high frequency roll-off. IMHO, this post-ringing gives out a better soundstage.

So I sincerely suggest a DAC with good DAC chip, good implementation and interchangeable multiple filters that preferably includes linear and minimum phase filters.
 
Nov 18, 2014 at 7:59 PM Post #3,655 of 5,671
   
when you say your dac is an on-board pc dac, im assuming that youre connecting your new O2 to the computer via the headphone jack? if so, your not only using your onboard dac, but are infact using both the onboard dac and the onboard amp - the signal coming out of the headphone jack is already post amplification, and passing that signal through the O2 is infact "double amping".
hypothetically, if there was a way to change the computers settings that would make the headphone jack a line-out, and the signal came directly from the dac to the output (bypassing the onboard amp), then you could tell the dac and amp apart, because you would use the O2 as a single amp - and maybe youd discover it was actually the onboard amp that was crappy. however, i have no idea if such an option exists.

 
 
Most onboard audiochips don't have an headphone amp , it's only a plain line out , with a limited output power/voltage and a high impedance output (well an line out :xf_eek:) . But now with the ALC 1150 their is more and more , what you can say an headphone amp for the onboard audio chip . He has to check what is the audio chip and if their is an headphone amp .
 
Personally, I prefer the minimum phase filter, because it removes the pre-ringing, which IMHO is the main reason for that "digitally" sound. This filter doesn't remove post-ringing, which for me is alright because real live analogue sound has post-ringing as well (think echoes, reverberations, and the like). However, as said, there's a trade-off, and in the case of minimum phase filter, that would be time domain differences/delays and slight-roll-off of the upper frequencies. In my ears, these trade-off doesn't make the sound "digitally", it just makes the sound a tiny bit more "scattered", for lack of better term. On the lower registers/frequencies, this makes the bass bit more/bigger. On the upper frequencies, I can't discern it much, and I think that's because of the un-corrected and existing post-ringing, which offsets the high frequency roll-off. IMHO, this post-ringing gives out a better soundstage.

So I sincerely suggest a DAC with good DAC chip, good implementation and interchangeable multiple filters that preferably includes linear and minimum phase filters.

 
And you have confirmed your thoughts on the effects of DAC filters with an blinded double ABX ? (well we are on a ODAC/O² thread so :p) .
 
Nov 18, 2014 at 8:04 PM Post #3,656 of 5,671
Most onboard audiochips don't have an headphone amp , it's only a plain line out , with a limited output power/voltage and a high impedance output (well an line out :xf_eek:) . But now with the ALC 1150 their is more and more , what you can say an headphone amp for the onboard audio chip . He has to check what is the audio chip and if their is an headphone amp .


And you have confirmed your thoughts on the effects of DAC filters with an blinded double ABX ? (well we are on a ODAC/O² thread so :p) .
Yes on the differences between different filters. Different type of DAC filter sounds different to me, and it's substantial.

Differences in sound of different DAC unit using the SAME filter, which most people A/B or compare or demo, are always the SAME to my ears of other things are equal.
 
Nov 19, 2014 at 6:41 AM Post #3,657 of 5,671
My new Samurai X themed O2+ODAC from JDS Labs. The free engraving turns out to be great. I didn't expect it would cover the whole area on the top.
 
 

 
Nov 19, 2014 at 7:31 AM Post #3,658 of 5,671
My new Samurai X themed O2+ODAC from JDS Labs. The free engraving turns out to be great. I didn't expect it would cover the whole area on the top.



Nice.
 
Nov 19, 2014 at 7:38 AM Post #3,659 of 5,671
I'd quite like to remove the screenprinting on my O2 & ODAC. Does anyone know a way to do this without damaging the faceplate? Rubbing alcohol perhaps?
 
Nov 19, 2014 at 9:55 AM Post #3,660 of 5,671
  I'd quite like to remove the screenprinting on my O2 & ODAC. Does anyone know a way to do this without damaging the faceplate? Rubbing alcohol perhaps?

If it's the JDS labs ODAC, I think that's done by laser engraving and you'll have to "remove" the rest of the coating.
 
Just did a scratch test on the ODAC on a part that was already scratched, and realised that the logo was done by using a colour removal method using laser etching. This is also a method used on some higher end gaming keyboards as well to ensure that the text on the keys don't wear out.
 
For nay sayers, here's an example of colour removal via laser etching:
 

 
This means that the only way to remove the visuals, is to either repaint it entirely, or to strip everything down.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top