[psycheoffrogs]

I'm a violinist with over 10 years of classical training, so I recently decided to get involved in the audiophile world for the sake of good sound. After my apple earbuds, the cheapest phones I've bought are the Koss KSC75, which have been a huge improvement over the buds, especially when considering the price point. I decided I wanted to get in deeper, so over the course of a few years, I bought the ATH-M50s, the Grado SR225i, the Sennheiser PX 200II and the Creative Aurvana Live phones (I no longer have the PX 200II or the CALs), all on the recommendations of the people on this forum. And despite my years of honing my ears from violin, I just can't see a big enough difference between the KSC75s and the more expensive headphones to warrant the huge price difference. Everyone heaps so much praise on all these more expensive headphones, but I just don't get it, even when I'm listening to lossless. I really want these headphones to sound great to my ears after spending so much money on them, but I think any difference I'm hearing is just a placebo effect. Can anyone explain to me what I should listen for or how to train my ears so I can learn to hear what's different? Maybe I need an amp or something? I'd really rather not spend more money for little changes, though.

 

[Munch]

I'm also a fellow violinist who turned to paying premiums for a better sound system for a better experience. I can tell you I learned that (with my limited resources at the time) the link between your headphones and source is important. My first headphones were HD650s...and they sounded extremely muddy from a portable amp while I waited for the preamp to come through the mail. When the preamp came it was a whole different story.
Usually the easiest thing to listen for is how fast and precise the snares/drums are. Then try to pick out other details such as clarity + separation. 
I definitely get my satisfaction from my setup, I guess it's just a matter of slowly building it up and researching thoroughly. It certainly won't beat going to listen to an orchestra live but it works.

 

[psycheoffrogs]

Thanks for your reply and your tips Munch. So are you saying that it's going to take more equipment (and more dollars) to make a big difference?
 

 

[HamilcarBarca]

Quote:

I'm a violinist with over 10 years of classical training, so I recently decided to get involved in the audiophile world for the sake of good sound. [...] And despite my years of honing my ears from violin, I just can't see a big enough difference between the KSC75s and the more expensive headphones to warrant the huge price difference.

 
Does a $25,000 violin sound 50 times better than a $500 violin? [Sorry, I don't know what violins really cost.] At some point, the designer reaches the point of diminishing returns for the costs required. Even at extreme costs, there are always design trade-offs.
 
Does a $300 headphone sound fifteen times better than the $20 model? In Baroque music those trumpets should ring with that brassy sound only they can make; my $20 headphones aren't satisfying here. The cello in opening of "Virga jesse floruit" is, contrarily, remarkable for the price of $20.
 
I have a $30 DAC, a $50 amp, and a pair of Beyerdynamic DT 990's. I believe I can get better sound for more money. But the $375 I spent gives me enough that I don't feel compelled to spend more. On the other hand, if I had my late uncle's Chief Surgeon plus Board of Directors salary, dropping $10,000 on a "rig" wouldn't cause me a bit of hesitation.
 
There's only one thing that's important: What's it worth to you?

 

[Armaegis]

Quote:

I just can't see a big enough difference between the KSC75s and the more expensive headphones to warrant the huge price difference. Everyone heaps so much praise on all these more expensive headphones, but I just don't get it, even when I'm listening to lossless.

 
This here is the main thing. Audio is a horrible game of diminishing returns. If you're happy with the KSC75 (which are fantastic sounding at their price point), then there's no need to go chasing the silly audiophile game. I'm perfectly happy with my Sennheiser PX100-ii, yet I have far too many other headphones and amps lying around that I hardly use. I have trouble justifying it most of the time to be honest, yet there's the other side of me who enjoys the game. I've spent as much as I'm comfortable with. I'm curious to go higher, but ultimately I know I won't be satisfied with it for the money spent even if I can hear the difference. 

 

[elvergun]

1) None of the headphones you have are of 'audiophile' level.   Your Grados are borderline 'audiophile' cans.
 
The M50s are just meh.  The PX200-II are terrible according to some people who's opinion I trust (I hate my PX200s).  The CAL is just okay.
 
2) Your KSC75s are really good headphones.  You might have found a sound signature you like, so now you have to find a 'better' can with that signature.   My PX100s are still one of my favorite headphones...I would rather give up one of my "good" headphones than to part with my little Sennheiser.

 

[Norbert]

I have the ksc75's also and enjoy them for what they are. The grado's are great cans. What I have found is that the source really does matter. Lossless is the way to go, but I don't plug my Audio Technica W1000's into the headphone jack of my ipod. Why bother? They wouldn't sound much better than the ksc's at that point. No. I plug my ipod into a digital dock to a decent DAC and then to an amp specifically designed for headphones. That's all in my signature. Then the difference is clearly noticeable. Symbols clash, I can hear guitar strings vibrate, acoustic music comes alive. On many Yo Yo Ma cello tracks I can hear him breathing like when I heard him live. It all just jumps out at you. So, what is your source?

 

[iamthem]

Compared to most expensive headphones the KSC75 doesn't have a soundstage. When I listen I feel like it's just pumping music into my ears. Cymbals and treble is nice through the KSC75, but the added brightness actually reduces the realism, and vocals can sound somewhat thin due to the emphasized high frequencies. Sub bass is missing as well, and the KSC75 can often sound congested. The KSC75 is a great performer although the more expensive Grado's do offer a substantial improvement in sound quality. Perhaps you've hit your point of diminishing returns? I find the KSC75 to be great, but unlistenable when it comes to focused active listening. Resolution doesn't improve dramatically as price increases, but being able to pick out the small details becomes easier because it's presented in a clearer manner.
 
Try Harman's How to Listen ear training program. Being a musician doesn't mean your ears have reached peak sensitivity. Some people can pick up minute deviations in the FR response, tiny amounts of resonance and differentiate  between millisecond differences in impulse response and accordingly detail.

 

[macrocheesium]

Quote:

Can anyone explain to me what I should listen for or how to train my ears so I can learn to hear what's different? Maybe I need an amp or something? I'd really rather not spend more money for little changes, though.

 
High-end audio is not for you. Seriously. Sadly, it's all about spending a lot of money for small changes. I'd say get yourself a decent source, amp, and headphones and be done with it. You really aren't going to see a significant improvement from those Grados without spend a LOT more money. If you don't have at least a decent source I really would suggest getting one, though.

 

[nick n]

Is this for portable use or home use?
I would look into one of the Stax electrets that's in decent shape at least to give yourself a taste of lower end electrostatics ( or the SR-001 Portable baby Stax even ), that or a decent vintage/ older ( cheaper ) orthodynamic that has a flat response.
Going to depend on what you're running them with though, the baby Stax SR-001 have a small portable amp that plugs into whatever you are using ( and cheaper mods for that too ), whereas the electrets generally require the adapter boxes hooked up to speaker terminals. Orthos are all TRS jack based but do generally need some juice so a small cmoy or FiiO portable amp would do wonders there, the amp don't have to be particularly expensive, same with the electrets or orthos themselves, there's still some good deals around for under/around $100.
 
Just some thoughts, all the cans you mentioned are Dynamics. These other types offer some different aspects than another dynamic might do.

 

[Lorspeaker]

Does a $25,000 violin sound 50 times better than a $500 violin?
 
i can garantee u both will sound the same in my hands.. 

 
i would believe that as a musician, u get up close hearing of real instruments playing around u. 
U can judge realism, no doubt. u hear the saliva trapped in the pipe of an oboe behind u..
 
when i first got into hi fi...this guy at the shop was explaining "soundstage" to  me...
how diff speakers will portray an invisible stage infront..how tall the sound can get..how deep...how wide..blablabla
 
headfi...its mostly IN the head...and engineers have been trying to get it OUT of the head..to the FRONT of the head..mix success..mostly its left n right.
thats where u got to PAY for that to happen.
 
if u dun care for the soundstage stuff...then the ksc75 would play reasonable accurate flat music on your ears..for u to get by the day and thats it.. its value for its price.
 
But i am addicted to depth...when i hear a can with depth i get the wowwwwwfactor...and my pocket suffers.

 

[psycheoffrogs]

Thanks for all the great responses so far!  I'm interested in good SQ, but only to a certain point, and I think I've hit that point as HamilcarBarca and Lorspeaker have pointed out. Unless there's a headphone, dynamic or electrostatic, with a massive increase in SQ within my budget (<300 dollars, preferably less by buying secondhand), I'll just settle with what I have now and learn to appreciate them. Maybe one day when my ears are extremely sensitive, I will invest in a >1000 dollar rig, but for now, I'm fine.
 
However, I am interested in a <100 dollar portable amp if it will significantly improve the SQ of my M50s and my 225i. I listen out of my iPod nano and my Dell Inspiron laptop. Should I even bother looking at amps at this price range? If so, does anyone have any suggestions?

 

[jwusoccer]

Quote:

Thanks for all the great responses so far!  I'm interested in good SQ, but only to a certain point, and I think I've hit that point as HamilcarBarca and Lorspeaker have pointed out. Unless there's a headphone, dynamic or electrostatic, with a massive increase in SQ within my budget (<300 dollars, preferably less by buying secondhand), I'll just settle with what I have now and learn to appreciate them. Maybe one day when my ears are extremely sensitive, I will invest in a >1000 dollar rig, but for now, I'm fine.
 
However, I am interested in a <100 dollar portable amp if it will significantly improve the SQ of my M50s and my 225i. I listen out of my iPod nano and my Dell Inspiron laptop. Should I even bother looking at amps at this price range? If so, does anyone have any suggestions?

I would use the money to invest in new headphones. From what i've heard, the m50s and 225i aren't very good choices for classical music. (assuming that you do listen to classical music since you are a violinist) The m50s also shouldn't be hard to drive and i don't think an amp would give you as much of an increase in sq that you want.

 

[complin]

The Best Violins (A Strad et alt )might cost $15 Million+
Quote:

 
Does a $25,000 violin sound 50 times better than a $500 violin? [Sorry, I don't know what violins really cost.] At some point, the designer reaches the point of diminishing returns for the costs required. Even at extreme costs, there are always design trade-offs.
 
 

 

[roBernd]

build yourself a decent cmoy or just buy something like this
http://www.jdslabs.com/item.php?fetchitem=cMoyBB203
 
There really is no reason to look down on a cmoy, they are cheap, simple but powerful.

also, don't forget this, the music can only sound as good as the source.
I don't even mean the Soundcard or the DAC (which are important), I'm talking about the recording and the files, which should be 320 V0 mp3s OR better.
A 128kb mp3 or a bad recorded flac file will sound crap even out of the most powerful amp + Stax or Orpheus.
 
Plus, most portable players and all phones are not quite "great for audio".
There are some exceptions like the sansa clip+ (with rockbox firmware) or the Hifiman 601... but there aren't many.
 
And keep your eyes open for some oldies on ebay.
e.g. A refurbished pair of K240 Sextetts with screen-mod and new dampening-material sounds better than almost anything out today and can be sniped for ~60€