[wolfetan44]

Quote:

Quote:

I didn't get a bump in sound quality until I added a good DAC to my setup.

This. Think source>DAC>headphones when trying to get more detail out of your setup. 

Don't get an amp first?

 

[takato14]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I didn't get a bump in sound quality until I added a good DAC to my setup.

This. Think source>DAC>headphones when trying to get more detail out of your setup. 

Don't get an amp first?

If you have an amp that provides enough volume for your headphones (or the headphones you want to get) then no. Actually driving the cans is only about volume. Driving them "properly" as some claim has to do with finding an amp with colorations that fit the headphones in question. 
 
I prefer a neutral amp that doesn't color or degrade the sound, and the O2 is that amp. The ODAC however is dry, clinical and bright. Not a good pairing for the HD800 (if you happened to get it).

 

[disastermouse]

If you have an amp that provides enough volume for your headphones (or the headphones you want to get) then no. Actually driving the cans is only about volume. Driving them "properly" as some claim has to do with finding an amp with colorations that fit the headphones in question. 

I prefer a neutral amp that doesn't color or degrade the sound, and the O2 is that amp. The ODAC however is dry, clinical and bright. Not a good pairing for the HD800 (if you happened to get it).

The arrogance with which you state your preferences as facts amuses me because I was swayed by such pronouncements to buy the O2 - a woefully inadequate amp for the HE-500 and a barely passable amp for the HD650.

What you are spouting is a preference for an inadequate amp - much the way James Bond orders a watered down drink in a condescending way. "But....but...but...measurements! Wire-with-gain!" You sound like someone who thinks bourbon is 'degraded' because it ages in oak barrels, not realizing that not everyone needs to enjoy Everclear in order to enjoy a good drink.

Go ahead, enjoy the O2 (God help it, someone needs to love the terrible thing), but stop implying that anyone who likes anything else is a dupe who enjoys 'degraded' sound.

If I've mis-characterized you in my little rant, I'm sorry about that. It just grates on me how people who like this sad sack of an amp consistently attack the preferences of people who enjoy something else entirely.

 

[wolfetan44]

Quote:

Quote:

If you have an amp that provides enough volume for your headphones (or the headphones you want to get) then no. Actually driving the cans is only about volume. Driving them "properly" as some claim has to do with finding an amp with colorations that fit the headphones in question. 

I prefer a neutral amp that doesn't color or degrade the sound, and the O2 is that amp. The ODAC however is dry, clinical and bright. Not a good pairing for the HD800 (if you happened to get it).

The arrogance with which you state your preferences as facts amuses me because I was swayed by such pronouncements to buy the O2 - a woefully inadequate amp for the HE-500 and a barely passable amp for the HD650.

What you are spouting is a preference for an inadequate amp - much the way James Bond orders a watered down drink in a condescending way. "But....but...but...measurements! Wire-with-gain!" You sound like someone who thinks bourbon is 'degraded' because it ages in oak barrels, not realizing that not everyone needs to enjoy Everclear in order to enjoy a good drink.

Go ahead, enjoy the O2 (God help it, someone needs to love the terrible thing), but stop implying that anyone who likes anything else is a dupe who enjoys 'degraded' sound.

If I've mis-characterized you in my little rant, I'm sorry about that. It just grates on me how people who like this sad sack of an amp consistently attack the preferences of people who enjoy something else entirely.

I'm just gonna say this; I like my O2. Not as Takato is making it out to be, but its a good amp I think..

 

[takato14]

Quote:

Originally Posted by disastermouse /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
The arrogance with which you state your preferences as facts amuses me because I was swayed by such pronouncements to buy the O2 - a woefully inadequate amp for the HE-500 and a barely passable amp for the HD650.

What you are spouting is a preference for an inadequate amp - much the way James Bond orders a watered down drink in a condescending way. "But....but...but...measurements! Wire-with-gain!" You sound like someone who thinks bourbon is 'degraded' because it ages in oak barrels, not realizing that not everyone needs to enjoy Everclear in order to enjoy a good drink.

Go ahead, enjoy the O2 (God help it, someone needs to love the terrible thing), but stop implying that anyone who likes anything else is a dupe who enjoys 'degraded' sound.

If I've mis-characterized you in my little rant, I'm sorry about that. It just grates on me how people who like this sad sack of an amp consistently attack the preferences of people who enjoy something else entirely.

I was not stating preferences as facts. Never once did I say colorations were a degradation. Proper design prevents degradation of signal quality, and coloration has absolutely nothing to do with that. 
 
The HD6x0 is not hard to drive. I don't know where people keep getting that from but it simply is not true.
 
Think of this. The HD600 is capable of revealing a lot in your music. You try a lower-end headphone amp with say 200 mW/32 ohms. It gets them loud enough for your listening preferences, but it sounds a little muffled or hazy in the mids. Then you try a higher-end amp with 800 mW/32 ohms and the muffled, hazy spots are gone. This isn't an amping problem, this is a design problem. The lower-end amp has flaws in its design that degrade the sound quality. Higher-end amps with more output power are less likely to have these flaws. It's not a matter of output power, its a matter of proper design. 
 
That's the point I was trying to make earlier. If the amp gets your headphones loud enough, you don't need a new amp. Every amp degrades the signal quality at least a little bit. The O2 is relatively free of design flaws, but it most certainly is not perfect. A better-designed amp will sound better, but your new headphones won't suddenly sound terrible because you need an extra few notches on the volume dial.
 
However, I concur, the O2 is nowhere near enough for the HE-500. If you planned on getting this headphone I was not aware. Orthodynamics are harder to drive by default. You'll probably want something like the Asgard 2 (or if on a budget, a Magni) for an ortho. Now, an HE-6.. that's another story. Almost certainly need a Lyr or better for that beast.
 
No harm done, wasn't trying to assert anything. Just trying to help out.

 

[disastermouse]

I was not stating preferences as facts. I prefer neutral amps. The O2 is neutral and it doesn't degrade the sound. Never once did I say colorations were a degradation. Proper design prevents degradation of signal quality, and coloration has absolutely nothing to do with that.

The HD6x0 is NOT hard to drive. I don't know where people keep getting that from but it simply is not true.

Think of this. The HD600 is capable of revealing a lot in your music. You try a lower-end headphone amp with say 200 mW/32 ohms. It gets them loud enough for your listening preferences, but it sounds a little muffled or hazy in the mids. Then you try a higher-end amp with 800 mW/32 ohms and the muffled, hazy spots are gone. This isn't an amping problem, this is a design problem. The lower-end amp has flaws in its design that degrade the sound quality. Higher-end amps with more output power are less likely to have these flaws. It's not a matter of output power, its a matter of proper design. 

That's the point I was trying to make earlier. If the amp gets your headphones loud enough, you don't need a new amp. Every amp degrades the signal quality at least a little bit. A better-designed amp will sound better, but your new headphones won't suddenly sound terrible because you need an extra few notches on the volume dial.


However, I concur, the O2 is nowhere near enough for the HE-500. If you planned on getting this headphone I was not aware. Orthodynamics are harder to drive by default. You'll probably want something like the Asgard 2 (or if on a budget, a Magni) for an ortho. Now, an HE-6.. that's another story. Almost certainly need a Lyr or better for that beast.


No harm done, wasn't trying to assert anything. Just trying to help out.

I actually did get the Magni for the HE-500 and it made a HUGE difference over the O2 and E9.

I didn't mean to mischaracterize you, I've just run into a weird sort of attitude with people who like the O2 and make outrageous claims about what it can do and who label its particular coloration as being colorless and its particular presentation as the most accurate presentation.

 

[takato14]

Quote:

I actually did get the Magni for the HE-500 and it made a HUGE difference over the O2 and E9.

I didn't mean to mischaracterize you, I've just run into a weird sort of attitude with people who like the O2 and make outrageous claims about what it can do and who label its particular coloration as being colorless and its particular presentation as the most accurate presentation.

Not a problem. People like that bother me as well.
 
Back to the topic, which headphones are you looking at, wolfetan? I saw you mention an HD800, what else might you be thinking of?

 

[wolfetan44]

Quote:

Quote:

I actually did get the Magni for the HE-500 and it made a HUGE difference over the O2 and E9.

I didn't mean to mischaracterize you, I've just run into a weird sort of attitude with people who like the O2 and make outrageous claims about what it can do and who label its particular coloration as being colorless and its particular presentation as the most accurate presentation.

Not a problem. People like that bother me as well.
 
Back to the topic, which headphones are you looking at, wolfetan? I saw you mention an HD800, what else might you be thinking of?

Any high-end headphone except for the T1 and Audez'e's offerings. So, uh, that leaves the HD800 and HE-6.. So those 2! I was leaning towards an amp, and I think I have found just the one, so I think this thread can be done. If anyones wondering what amp, one made bny 2539glenn.

 

[obobskivich]

Any reason electrostatic headphones or the high-end Grados haven't been seriously discussed, except by Mal? I'm going to go against the grain and say that the headphones/speakers (whatever that "final output transducer" looks like) is going to be the biggest deal in any chain, and all of the upstream equipment is going to be fairly minimal (more or less as takato said). Get an amp that can appropriately drive your chosen widget, ideally that amp will be fairly clean and well put together, and feed good music into it. Put the money into the widget.

Notice that D/A or CDP hasn't really been mentioned here, for the primary reason that it's really not nearly as big a deal as people make it into. Good digital has gotten darned cheap in the last 10 or so years, and the diminishing returns curve is absolutely pathetic. If what you have is already clean on the output, unless you want to get into explicitly colored devices, you aren't really going to "gain" anything beyond a lot of feel-good vibes IMO. Do with this what you will.


tl;dr: if you want a big, dramatic, etc change - get new headphones. If you like what you have but want to spend money, get a source/amp/etc device.

 

[wolfetan44]

Quote:

Any reason electrostatic headphones or the high-end Grados haven't been seriously discussed, except by Mal? I'm going to go against the grain and say that the headphones/speakers (whatever that "final output transducer" looks like) is going to be the biggest deal in any chain, and all of the upstream equipment is going to be fairly minimal (more or less as takato said). Get an amp that can appropriately drive your chosen widget, ideally that amp will be fairly clean and well put together, and feed good music into it. Put the money into the widget.

Notice that D/A or CDP hasn't really been mentioned here, for the primary reason that it's really not nearly as big a deal as people make it into. Good digital has gotten darned cheap in the last 10 or so years, and the diminishing returns curve is absolutely pathetic. If what you have is already clean on the output, unless you want to get into explicitly colored devices, you aren't really going to "gain" anything beyond a lot of feel-good vibes IMO. Do with this what you will.


tl;dr: if you want a big, dramatic, etc change - get new headphones. If you like what you have but want to spend money, get a source/amp/etc device.

I think I'm going to get an amp/DAC

 

[obobskivich]

I think I'm going to get an amp/DAC

Well at least get a GOOD one. :wink_face:

 

[nicko7i]

I was surprised how much difference upgrading my DAC/amp made.  I didn't expect much when, several years ago,  I dropped $800+ on an Audio-gd DAC-19/C2 combo (now out of production). How much better could it be than my $100 DAC and a vintage NAD pre-amp?  As an engineer, the idea that electronics is a "solved problem" so pile all your chips on the transducer was very appealing.  But I was mistaken.  It made a big difference.
 
Last year I bought an Audio-gd NBF 11.32 for work.  I love it.  It's entirely competitive with my DAC19/C2.  For $350 dollars (I got the crystal upgrades) you'll have plenty of money left over for the transducers!
 
n

 

[HeatFan12]

Quote:

I was surprised how much difference upgrading my DAC/amp made.  I didn't expect much when, several years ago,  I dropped $800+ on an Audio-gd DAC-19/C2 combo (now out of production). How much better could it be than my $100 DAC and a vintage NAD pre-amp?  As an engineer, the idea that electronics is a "solved problem" so pile all your chips on the transducer was very appealing.  But I was mistaken.  It made a big difference.
 
Last year I bought an Audio-gd NBF 11.32 for work.  I love it.  It's entirely competitive with my DAC19/C2.  For $350 dollars (I got the crystal upgrades) you'll have plenty of money left over for the transducers!
 
n

 
Nice nicko7i,
 
I still own the DAC-19/C2 combo as well and I also purchased the 11.32....Still enjoying all these days...I have sold various dacs through the years, but the A-GD gear is here to stay.
 
 
Wolfe...get yourself some A-GD love and be done with it.....and maybe some Ultrasones....

 
 
Cheers!

 

[brunk]

Nice nicko7i,

I still own the DAC-19/C2 combo as well and I also purchased the 11.32....Still enjoying all these days...I have sold various dacs through the years, but the A-GD gear is here to stay.


Wolfe...get yourself some A-GD love and be done with it.....and maybe some Ultrasones....


Cheers!

Lol that was my first reply to the OP on like the 4th post