[Misterrogers]

Tony - I don't mean 'bit perfect' on the transport side or the marketing sense, I mean a D/A conversion that doesn't round or approximate. 

 

[atubbs]

Originally Posted by tonykaz /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
...
 
Bit Perfect has been around for a while, maybe You haven't been exposed to it yet but it's common in the better range of stuff. 
 
My iMac has a Bit Perfect for cristsake.  
 
...

 
Careful. "Bit Perfect" means different things to different people. Bit-perfect to the chip/from the transport is different than bit-perfect end-to-end.

 

[adamaley]

Just like any train, you can hop on and get off, stick around till you get to the destination, and if the destination wasn't what you thought it would be, you can always catch a train back.

 

[zerodeefex]

Even MSB's 24 bit implenetation with an 80 bit DSP is using increasingly accurate approximations to be "effectively bit perfect"

I suspect Schiit wasn't even satisfied with 24 bit chips that were monotonic to 16 bits to pair with their closed form filter.

 

[purrin]

I have to admit I got turned off by purrin's comments on how ruthlessly revealing the iggy prototype was. There's a way to deliver resolution without getting clinical sounding, and I went for a path I trusted (having experienced first hand a dac that could deliver there). Finding out that the magic filter in the iggy was actually oversampling was also what turned me away for good (at least of buying it, i still want to hear it some day), I am a strong believer in playing material at the native sample rate...

 
I wouldn't say it's clinical sounding at all (Bricasti, PWD2, Vega have a more clinical presentation); but if you don't like hearing the qualities of noise grain, or how it is differentiated, stay away from Yggy. Yes, the filter is oversampling. Yggy most certainly does not sound like the NOS DACs out there. The Yggy does have some NOS-like qualities such as tonal density, but it is not pervasive. If you like the NOS DAC sound, stay away from Yggy. The one DAC Yggy sounds the most similar to in terms or presentation is the Theta Gen V.
 

  So, when the product is released, get hold of one, try it out, make up your own mind.  Everything else is just people's gums flapping.  

 
Buying and returning or buying and selling is easier to do if you have disposable income. If you don't live in CA, it's harder for people to make meets. Unfortunately, not everybody is rich nor do they live in CA. I personally know people who have been saving up for the Yggy based on Moffat's reputation alone. The few impressions here are data points. I won't dare assume people who are going to buy a $2300 piece of equipment are stupid and won't do their own due diligence before such a purchase. 
 
On peoples' gums flapping, isn't this the purpose of audio forums? 

 What's surprising to me is the lack of pointed questions on how the Yggy sounds or the details of how it works. Instead we get cries of "hype, hype" when two (now three) people said the Yggy they heard was fantastic. That's gum's flapping to me. Don't get me wrong. The hype-train will happen with the Yggy - IMO deservedly so - but it hasn't started yet.
 
I understand the skepticism; but being an ass (not referring to you, but to some others) is quite different from being skeptical.

 

[Sonic Defender]

Hypetrains are a consequence of forums everywhere. It comes down to, do you trust the people who are "driving" the train. For me, it's case by case.

I do regret not being able to listen to the Rag/Yggy combo when I had the chance during one of those meets. Stupid cold.

Couldn't agree more, and that is exactly how I form my opinion around here. If enough people I trust are on the train, then I trust the train will take me somewhere worth going. If I don't like where I end up, I can always take another trip. Sometimes hype is an accurate reflection of the object being hyped.

 

[Ableza]

Buying and returning or buying and selling is easier to do if you have disposable income. If you don't live in CA, it's harder for people to make meets. Unfortunately, not everybody is rich nor do they live in CA. I personally know people who have been saving up for the Yggy based on Moffat's reputation alone. The few impressions here are data points. I won't dare assume people who are going to buy a $2300 piece of equipment are stupid and won't do their own due diligence before such a purchase.   
On peoples' gums flapping, isn't this the purpose of audio forums? 

 What's surprising to me is the lack of pointed questions on how the Yggy sounds or the details of how it works. Instead we get cries of "hype, hype" when two (now three) people said the Yggy they heard was fantastic. That's gum's flapping to me. Don't get me wrong. The hype-train will happen with the Yggy - IMO deservedly so - but it hasn't started yet.
 
I understand the skepticism; but being an ass (not referring to you, but to some others) is quite different from being skeptical.

I also find that most people who resort to flapping gums about "hype" also tend to be the ones who will not (or, perhaps, cannot) buy the gear.  I usually suspect jealousy as at least part of their motivation.

 

[Ali-Pacha]

Does any hype-train travellers (I'm in with this post 

) mind to post a picture of Yggie's back panel ?

Ali

 

[7ryder]

  I also find that most people who resort to flapping gums about "hype" also tend to be the ones who will not (or, perhaps, cannot) buy the gear.  I usually suspect jealousy as at least part of their motivation.

Yeah, I've experienced that too...in fact, one time I called someone out about this (I think it was Head-fi, not sure) and said that I suspected his negativity was because he couldn't afford whatever it was we were talking about.
 
Well, the guy then went off about how he was only twenty something years old, making over $100K, could afford anything he wanted, blah blah blah...I think his post would have gone on a lot longer, but his mom was yelling at him to come up from the basement because dinner was ready, so he had to cut it short!

 

[bearFNF]

  Does any hype-train travellers (I'm in with this post 

) mind to post a picture of Yggie's back panel ?

Ali

Here ya go (taken from Judes CanJam preview video):

 
Here is the video (yggy is at about the 18:16 mark):

 

[Ali-Pacha]

Thanks a lot 

Ali

 

[shortcuttomonct]

  Ha!  Well thanks for helping with my ignorance I had no idea people from Newfoundland were also called Newfies.  I am sure they can be sweethearts as well. 
 
I also just recently learned that Habs was a thing...

Just as a small tip - despite those earlier posts, I would suggest you regard the term "Newfie" as a possible entrant into "the other N-word" category.  This has happened relatively recently - over the last 10 years or so - and a lot of people do still use the term, but in general the preferred nomenclature is now "Newfoundlander" (pronounced New-Fin-Land-er).  Newfoundlanders are an easy-going people and not easily offended, but you'll notice a raised eyebrow or two if you go around calling everyone a Newfie during your upcoming visit to beautiful St. John's. 

 

[Radio_head]

Hype is not itself a negative.  I can think of a number of great indie films and niche products that would have never have reached any 'mainstream' consumer if not for the hype generated among enthusiasts.
 
But the headphone related high-end market is just churning out so much gear these days.  There are so many flagship amps/DACs/headphones being released, its like playing a game of Stratego with a bunch of bombs wearing general hats.  Furthermore, the headphone market's high-end advances are often in the luxury direction more than objective performance gains.  This is a trend that is much more pronounced in the speaker world but the headphone world is not too far behind.  
 
Many people have been on this roller coaster so many times they are perpetually dizzy.  The roller coaster takes a picture of them at the fastest point of the ride and its just a faceful of 'meh.'  Add to this that people are more likely to trust negative reviews than positive ones and you have an issue: any positive review, however tempered, is more likely to be subjected to scrutiny (both the review itself and the motives of the reviewer.)  The flipside is of course that once product X reaches a critical mass of fans, any criticism is deemed hate, at least until X V2 comes along when suddenly X did have some problems that were of course solved in V2.
 
So, how to separate manufactured 'hype' from enthusiast's enthusiasm, and mere enthusiasm from thoughtful critique?
 
1) Look at the poster's track record.  

1. Is everything they try the best thing since sliced bread?  
2. Do they only post positive reviews or negative as well?  
3. Are their 'negatives' along the lines of 'both X and Y are amazing, I will have to ask X and Y manufacturers for another product loan to settle the debate'?  Or "it is so good at its job that it may be too (insert good thing)" - this is akin to going to a job interview and being that guy who says his only weakness is being too amazing.
4. Does the poster participate in the general community (if reviews on forums) or do they use forums as a form of exposure for their reviews? (This helps me decide if they are a "climber" trying to get picked up by a review website or free items from manufacturers, they will pull all punches to get future gear.)
5. Are they brand loyalists to a fault or are they willing to admit deficiency with at least some products in a companies line or some aspect of a given product, especially accounting for tastes that aren't their own
6. Are they willing to take valid criticism of their work, methodology, writing style, or anything involving the review itself in good humor?  Or is anyone questioning a review seen as an assailant of their person?  
7. What do they appeal to?  Emotion (eg 'I felt stirrings inside myself that had long lain dormant while listening to Aqua's "Barbie Girl" with the X product.") Authority ("X authority, Y authority and myself can't be wrong.") Experience ("In my 47.3 years in the high end market, never have I heard a product such as this.  Did I mention my 47.3 years in the market?"  "I have had literally everything in my possession and this is the best.  Did I mention I own all the things?"  "In my years of experience touring with Jethro Tull as a sanitation engineer, I got a first hand look at music production and reproduction and X product is not faithful to the mix." "I am jaded about hifi so when I say something good you can't be jaded about what I say."  etc) Community ("Me and the dudes are totally chill down to earth bros doing roundtable reviews and we organize meets and you should come to them and now I'm reviewing something that will be there and so maybe because we'll meet in person and you'll be part of this cutting edge gear commune you should agree with us.") FOMO ("If you haven't heard X with its new nano pico Y technology the gear you've enjoyed for the last 5 years is worthless and you might as well go back to the stone age with your dial up telegram gramaphones.") Nostalgia (" I remember being a dead-head and at floyd's Pink Moon tour and the sheer craziness of 70's vinyl and early high end companies and since you do too you should agree with me about X's new product.  It encapsulates our youth when the music we listened to was still on the "new releases" shelves and popular culture was targeted towards our generation.") Science ("X product totally sciences in the most science-y way.  Here are some charts and graphs and words you'd assume I'd made up if the internet didn't exist but now that it does you scan the wiki and argue with me about it as if you have a degree in it.") or a review untinged with any hook of any kind (no examples.  People who write reviews want others to try this stuff too, so they are always appealing to something.  Identify what it is, and whether you can filter it from the rest of the information being provided.)
8. Have you tried products they have already reviewed?  Were your experiences similar or were their treasures your trash?  If you seem at loggerheads with them over other gear, maybe don't buy the newest stuff they are trumpeting without verification from others you trust/yourself first.  
9. Touched upon tangentially, but are their approbations unreserved or do they come with real caveats?

 
2) Look at the track record of the company

1. Do they release something they tout as the best thing since sliced bread every year?  
2. Are their products generally liked by the public, reviewers, or both?  (Think rottontomatoes vs imdb)
3. Do they have a history of bullying tactics used against those who are less than complimentary about their products or are they graceful about dissent?
4. Do they engage the public through social channels or do they take the monolithic approach?  Are they reachable and do they respond to helpful critique?  Do they make things they think you'll like or do they think you'll have to like it because they made it?  Are they so PC in their responses you wonder why they call themselves "Apple"?
5. Do they push technology forward (often in-house) or are they just slapping a brand name on a half-hearted approach into a market they don't have any particular specialty in?
6. How many terms that they use are trademarked for marketing purposes?  How many because they genuinely do something new and different?
7. Do they plan for obsolescence or can you avoid FOMO with them for at least a few months?
8. How is their QC and CS?  A company often needs at least one of these two things to be very good to make up for the other.
9. Do they appeal to performance ("THD so low it could headbutt an oompa loompa in its nether regions") luxury/exclusivity ("We bred an Ibex with a lemur and a silkworm and then exported them to the most exotic location possible so you could boast about your products' pads being composed of their byproduct to your friends at their secret hideout carved out of rock in a Mount Rushmore homage with their own faces in the place of the presidents") Discernment ("You don't always listen to headphones, but when you do they have to be adjusted for 10 minutes to fit your head.  You're smarter than other mindless buyers, guy.") Convenience/Ease of Use ("For an on-the-go working mom who is on-the-go with kids and a career and also on-the-go, you need these headphones. Aren't tangled wires the worst?")  Price/Performance ("These headphones beat out cantaloupes 10 times the price in linearity measurements and subjective listening pleasure.  Don't overspend on fruit thinking they have the same functionality as our headphones again!") Xenophobia ("Don't buy Chinese and save money.  All our products are made in the USA, much like drones and nuclear bombs.  Don't you want to be able to precision bomb a hospital?  And don't even get us started on France.  We have so many jokes about their surrender in WWII that you will regret having engaged us in conversation.") And of course, consumerism as the cure for all diseases ("Do you suffer from crippling depression?  Have you been diagnosed with multiple personality disorder, possibly by another of your personalities manifesting as a psychiatrist?  Do you suffer from chronic insomnia to the point where you're not convinced if this commercial is a dream or real or real in a dream because dreams have taken on the same import as reality in your fragile, fractured mind?  Do you stare wistfully outside, thinking how much better the world is out there only to realize you are staring in a mirror and you're blind and that it was a dream of one of your other depressed personalities because now we're coming full circle and just mashing all your problems together?  Well, now you'll be happy if you buy this thing.  No more messy pouring!") etc - again, every company appeals to something so figure out their angle and separate it from the product itself.
10. Do they push the story too much?  Or do they let the product and its performance speak for itself?
11. When there are problems with products that get discussed publicly, do they act to rectify situations quickly and completely, and are they willing to admit fault?

 
3) Look at the medium of publication, whether print magazines or online.  Are they willing to allow real criticism in reviews?  Do they always seem to have good reviews for items with a full page ad that month?  How much do they care about vendor relationships at the possibility of alienating subscribers with favoritism?
 
4) Look user base who likes a given product.  Are they all kind of jerks?  Because I don't want it to be me and a bunch of jerks liking something, no matter how good the product is.

 

[Sonic Defender]

@Radio_head, how can you be sure you're not a jerk?

 Totally kidding, or am I? Maybe I'm a jerk? I wouldn't care if all the people who liked the gear were jerks, as long as the gear was good can't blame the gear can you. Very thoughtful post on the hype subject. I suspect most of us are better at detecting hype than we realize. As you intonated, I look for the totality of evidence, keeping in mind a great deal of the hobby is subjective. Since joining head-fi I have invested a pretty penny into gear and virtually all of the gear was purchased without hearing it prior to purchase as I took my time and read and asked questions. I firmly believe that the experienced in the hobby try very hard to be as objective as they can be while sharing their enthusiasm for a product. It seems some people that frequent these forums (and others) just have a burning desire to tell others that everybody is full of crap and just telling us to like what they like. Whatever, everybody is entitled to their opinion and they have the right to express it.

 

[Ableza]

As Chris Rock said about comedy, "If you're not offending SOMEBODY, you're not doing it right."