[driftingbunnies]

External clock would help definitely (if only Yggy support it). Alternative brands supporting external clock are expensive. It is why looking for a DAC supporting I2S make a sense. There are much cheaper than Yggy with a pricing starting from $850 Audio GD (R-1), then Musicians (Pegasus), Denafrips (Pontus) in order of increasing cost. All of them support NOS mode, you may like it.

I'd be looking to upgrade, not stay at the same level or downgrade.

 

[sajunky]

I'd be looking to upgrade, not stay at the same level or downgrade.

With entry level Ares it may be a sidegrade, but Ares do not support I2S anyway, so there is no point. All others will give an upgrade to Yggy. I am talking about pairing with DI-20HE and you have a number of more expensive models to chose from: Denafrips Pontus, Venus and Terminator(s), Audio GD R-1, R-8 and R-7. You can even make plans to avoid spending extra $1k for DI-20HE by chosing HE versions of R-8/R-7, but even a flagship model R-7HE 2021 Edition will benefit from DI-20HE.

You can try just a DAC of your choice first, adding DI-20HE later. Yggy do not offer such opportunity. I am talking about planning when building blocks. Planning is neccesary to not spend a fortune for a high-end system.

 

[driftingbunnies]

Thanks for your suggestions. I'm already using a denafrips DDC and am considering a higher end i2s dac in the future. The denafrips offerings and possibly the holo may seem like a good choice.

 

[sajunky]

Thanks for your suggestions. I'm already using a denafrips DDC and am considering a higher end i2s dac in the future. The denafrips offerings and possibly the holo may seem like a good choice.

How do you connect it to Yggy? It doesn't make any sense. S/PDIF type of connection is already galvanically isolated and always require reclocking, no matter it is coming through DDC or directly from a source. Yggy do this job well, but a game changer (a real high-end solution) would be external clock input on Yggy. As there is none, A2 version which improve quality of USB can give better results when using USB connection directly (bypassing DDC completely). And a Denafrips DDC solutions do not have reputation of Audio GD DI-20HE.

 

[Zachik]

Denafrips DDC solutions do not have reputation of Audio GD DI-20HE.

Were there any good A/B comparisons between Denafrips and Audio-GD?
Audio-GD seems to have a much larger and loyal following, but that does not necessarily mean it is better...

 

[driftingbunnies]

Were there any good A/B comparisons between Denafrips and Audio-GD?
Audio-GD seems to have a much larger and loyal following, but that does not necessarily mean it is better...

I'd take what is said with a grain of salt. I believe sajunky really enjoys his Audio-gd stuff which is totally fine. I haven't listened to one in a while but I'm sure there are reasons people enjoy their stuff. Since this is a Denafrips DDC thread, I would hope we would stick to Denafrips DDC talk rather than DI-20HE talk unless someone was able to compare the two. I have no reason to believe that the DI-20HE is miles ahead of the denafrips offerings or vice versa.

 

[Zachik]

Were there any good A/B comparisons between Denafrips and Audio-GD?
Audio-GD seems to have a much larger and loyal following, but that does not necessarily mean it is better...

I'd take what is said with a grain of salt. I believe sajunky really enjoys his Audio-gd stuff which is totally fine. I haven't listened to one in a while but I'm sure there are reasons people enjoy their stuff. Since this is a Denafrips DDC thread, I would hope we would stick to Denafrips DDC talk rather than DI-20HE talk unless someone was able to compare the two. I have no reason to believe that the DI-20HE is miles ahead of the denafrips offerings or vice versa.

I am NOT trying to derail the thread! Seriously considering an upgrade for my DDC - the 2 main contenders are Denafrips (likely Iris) and the DI-20HE.
I am both surprised and disappointed there are no numerous people comparing the 2 options. I agree that probably difference won't be night and day, but spending $1,000 or so - I would rather get the "better" one, even if only by a nose

 

[sajunky]

I am NOT trying to derail the thread! Seriously considering an upgrade for my DDC - the 2 main contenders are Denafrips (likely Iris) and the DI-20HE.

Even a basic DI-20 (non-HE) stands up against Denafrips implementation. I will try to explain it below. For now let me put a few words in general why we use DDC.

TL;DR,
A main problem with USB connection is spreading ground loops which PC is a great source. USB purifiers do not work in general, as USB standard require DC level handshaking. It makes galvanic isolation very difficult to implement, A solution is to place galvanic isolation after converting it to I2S, leaving USB receiver chip on the dirty side. Well, but what about clock? This is a big question!

There are three modes of USB isochronous transfers (all audio transfers): synchronous, adaptive and asynchronous. All modern USB implementation support the last one for the best quality. There are two methods of a clock synchronisation in this mode: push and event (asynchronous with explicit end point - in USB terminology).

- Push mode means that a host decide a moment when to send a next frame, it means a speed of the stream is determined by a sender. It has an inherent jitter and an average speed is not matching an internal clock speed. A difference in a speed will cause under or over flowing FIFO buffers. There are number of methods of synchronising clock speed, PLL, reclocking or even adding/dropping zero samples in quiet passages. Each one has drawbacks.

- Event mode require receiving feedback frames from the sink (receiving side) for synchronising speed with USB controller clock which becomes a reference clock. Most of modern USB implementation support this mode. It allows to use a fixed frequency DAC clock and no PLL or reclocking is required, it is ideal for a low jitter.

Operating systems Windows and MAC OS prefer push mode, but event driven mode can be selected in a good player. However so far there was no clear advantage of using event mode. Why? It is because almost all of DAC implementations always apply reclocking methods, this is a problem. I don't remember the brand, but it was a device in the price range $15k that was using full advantage of event driven mode.

/TL;DR,
Now coming back to the Denafrips. All Denafrips DACs (except Terminator Plus) do not have galvanic isolators on the USB connection. In this situation Denafrips DDC's bring solution to the problem, improving quality of the sound. It is still doing internal reclocking, so it is not the best solution and I see SMPS on the PC board Gaia.

DI-20 was introduced one year ago and immediately gained a highest praise from the users. Check DI-20 thread for details. It wasn't communicated with us clearly, but now we have more details. It is on the occasion of giving explanation why users should upgrade their DACs to the 2021 standard. All 2021 models receive the same mods as DI-20 had from the beginning.

It is what is happening there. As I mentioned before, USB controller is on a dirty side, so it is not a good idea to use controller clock as a reference clock. All others deploy reclocking. Audio GD decided to develop bi-directional galvanic isolator for I2S lines, feeding the internal high-precision fixed frequency clock back to the USB controller board (as opposed a feed-forward). In this way a full advantage of event driven mode can be achieved, no PLL or reclocking is used.

Denafrips DDC's do a job in their segment, their all product range, but what we get from Audio GD is standing up against most of competitors in the 10 times more expensive segment. It will change soon, as others will follow, but at the moment it is exceptional. Starting from entry level DI-20 and all DACs 2021 level, to the DI-20HE that can be used with other brands high-end solution due to the regenerative power supply.

 

[Zachik]

Now coming back to the Denafrips. All Denafrips DACs (except Terminator Plus) do not have galvanic isolators on the USB connection. In this situation Denafrips DDC's bring solution to the problem, improving quality of the sound. It is still doing internal reclocking, so it is not the best solution and I see SMPS on the PC board Gaia.

DI-20 was introduced one year ago and immediately gained a highest praise from the users. Check DI-20 thread for details. It wasn't communicated with us clearly, but now we have more details. It is on the occasion of giving explanation why users should upgrade their DACs to the 2021 standard. All 2021 models receive the same mods as DI-20 had from the beginning.

It is what is happening there. As I mentioned before, USB controller is on a dirty side, so it is not a good idea to use controller clock as a reference clock. All others deploy reclocking. Audio GD decided to develop bi-directional galvanic isolator for I2S lines, feeding the internal high-precision fixed frequency clock back to the USB controller board (as opposed a feed-forward). In this way a full advantage of event driven mode can be achieved, no PLL or reclocking is used.

Denafrips DDC's do a job in their segment, their all product range, but what we get from Audio GD is standing up against most of competitors in the 10 times more expensive segment. It will change soon, as others will follow, but at the moment it is exceptional. Starting from entry level DI-20 and all DACs 2021 level, to the DI-20HE that can be used with other brands high-end solution due to the regenerative power supply.

Excellent explanation!
Since my DAC is NOT by Denafrips or Audio-GD - I will not benefit from any proprietary (or standard but not-implemented-by-anyone-else) hand-shake between the DAC and the DDC.
Having said that, do you still think the DI-20 is superior to the Iris (or Hermes)? The Gaia is out of my price range, so not relevant for me.
(I did read the entire DI-20 thread, but no comparisons there to the Denafrips DDC either)

Thanks again.

 

[sajunky]

Excellent explanation!
Since my DAC is NOT by Denafrips or Audio-GD - I will not benefit from any proprietary (or standard but not-implemented-by-anyone-else) hand-shake between the DAC and the DDC.
Having said that, do you still think the DI-20 is superior to the Iris (or Hermes)? The Gaia is out of my price range, so not relevant for me.
(I did read the entire DI-20 thread, but no comparisons there to the Denafrips DDC either)

Thanks again.

A proprietary I2S feed back solution is internally between USB controller board and a main reference clock. A clock of the device I2S output is feed-forward, driven by a fixed frequency clock of DI-20, the same as others do.

In other words DI-20 technology advantage described above applies to all other brands connecting to the DI-20, not only Audio GD DACs. So yes, DI-20 is is better than Iris and others for this reason (even Gaia), but check compatibilty first, as external I2S connection is not regulated by any standard. It becomes slowly de-facto industry standard though. Both Denafrips and Audio GD follow the same PS Audio I2S implementation, it is the latest trend.

Sorry if this part wasn't clear. English is not my home language, I am trying the best.

 

[BlakeT]

How do you connect it to Yggy? It doesn't make any sense. S/PDIF type of connection is already galvanically isolated and always require reclocking, no matter it is coming through DDC or directly from a source. Yggy do this job well, but a game changer (a real high-end solution) would be external clock input on Yggy. As there is none, A2 version which improve quality of USB can give better results when using USB connection directly (bypassing DDC completely). And a Denafrips DDC solutions do not have reputation of Audio GD DI-20HE.

Do you own a Yggy A2 and Denafrips DDC? Have you owned a Yggy A2 and tried it with any other quality DDC? I have and my experience says you are 100% wrong. But, glad for you that you enjoy your Audio-gd stuff.

You are making some pretty big claims here and there is zero chance you have personal experience with all these DDC's to claim superiority of the Audio-gd. I have no problem with people hearing things differently and there are always synergies between certain products but you seem to be on here just to troll.

 

[sajunky]

Do you own a Yggy A2 and Denafrips DDC? Have you owned a Yggy A2 and tried it with any other quality DDC? I have and my experience says you are 100% wrong. But, glad for you that you enjoy your Audio-gd stuff.

You are making some pretty big claims here and there is zero chance you have personal experience with all these DDC's to claim superiority.

I am sorry, I will not answer your question, your post looks confrontational on one side and your example is not the best DDC use on the other.

Where is I2s on Yggy? Do it have an external clock input to achieve similar DDC advantage on the S/PDIF (AES/EBU) connection? Answer yourself, I do will not bother anymore.

 

[driftingbunnies]

I am sorry, I will not answer your question, your post looks confrontational on one side and your example is not the best DDC use on the other.

Where is I2s on Yggy? Do it have an external clock input to achieve similar DDC advantage on the S/PDIF (AES/EBU) connection? Answer yourself, I do will not bother anymore.

There is none. That is why I was thinking there can be more gain to be had if I found a DAC with an i2s input. Even without that though, I can tell there are some improvements. I think it just goes to show either how well the USB has been implemented on the ygg or how bad all their inputs are.

 

[Zachik]

A proprietary I2S feed back solution is internally between USB controller board and a main reference clock. A clock of the device I2S output is feed-forward, driven by a fixed frequency clock of DI-20, the same as others do.

In other words DI-20 technology advantage described above applies to all other brands connecting to the DI-20, not only Audio GD DACs. So yes, DI-20 is is better than Iris and others for this reason (even Gaia), but check compatibilty first, as external I2S connection is not regulated by any standard. It becomes slowly de-facto industry standard though. Both Denafrips and Audio GD follow the same PS Audio I2S implementation, it is the latest trend.

Sorry if this part wasn't clear. English is not my home language, I am trying the best.

I was going to use SPDIF or AES. Not I2S... Also, my DAC does NOT support external clock.
Knowing that, do you still believe the DI-20 is superior to Denafrips DDC products? or do you think I will only see an advantage to DI-20 when using I2S?

 

[BlakeT]

I am sorry, I will not answer your question, your post looks confrontational on one side and your example is not the best DDC use on the other.

Where is I2s on Yggy? Do it have an external clock input to achieve similar DDC advantage on the S/PDIF (AES/EBU) connection? Answer yourself, I do will not bother anymore.

You won't answer because you have no personal experience with any Denafrips DDC and you are simply making up stuff here. Yes, we know you LOVE Audio-gd. Great for you. Your question about Yggy having I2S is comical and dumb at the same time.