[angelom]

Am I right in thinking that the Dali has higher volume than the Solitaire T and a more refined sound than the Bathys?

More volume than the ST? Definitely, and the volume control (volume steps up and down ) in BT mode is fantastic in comparison to the ST.

More refined sound than the Bathys? In my opinion, definitely yes.

 

[Dragonmilenario]

More volume than the ST? Definitely, and the volume control (volume steps up and down ) in BT mode is fantastic in comparison to the ST.

More refined sound than the Bathys? In my opinion, definitely yes.

I also think that the sound it´s more refined than the Bathys by a large margin.

 

[zolkis]

Welcome to head-fi where you will seeing diametrically opposing views/descriptions of the same headphone.

That is an exaggeration: they are not diametrically opposing views.
1. With the given track, the boominess of the IO-12 is less apparent.
2. The quote from @hutzelmeier was
> " a somewhat similar soundstage, a surprisingly similar tonality, and sufficient detail"
- I can see where does that come from, but I'd say that for me the tonality is not similar in the bass, and sufficiently different elsewhere, too. The rest I agree with, so it cannot be diametrically opposing view.

I gave it a try myself, too, using a HD650, a Stax X9K and a Phenomenon Libratum V3 and V5.
I like (my modded earpads) IO-12 more than the HD650 in most respects, but it doesn't hold a candle to the e-stats IMHO, which present far better layering, nuance, body, dynamic details, location cues, bass resolution, fluidity, velvetiness etc. etc. I use a pretty SOTA e-stat energizer, though (~6K eur value). I think I'd like the 800S more, too, than the IO-12 (when used from another SOTA LD-MOS headphone amp that drives it well).

The closest sound to the IO-12 IMHO is still the D7200, they match pretty well, except the Denons sound more fluid and more analog, if one may say so, with less bass boom, but also smaller sound stage (in stock form). They both respond very well to ear pads optimizations.
All in all, after the earpad mods, I'd say the IO-12 is a better buy, if it passes your personal threshold for good sound.
The T+A ST can also sound more fluid than the IO-12, but the tonality and sound stage are sufficiently different that someone will likely be able to tell which suits better their taste and use cases - of course YMMV.

But these are mostly futile comparisons - even the fact that people do actually compare headphone systems of this level (~4-12x price difference) with the IO-12, speaks volumes for Dali. We have come far, indeed.

 

[zolkis]

Maybe this was discussed earlier: did anyone compare the IO-12 in BT mode with different phones / DAPs, and did you hear differences?

I tested with Sony phones, DAPs and iPhones, plus several laptops (Lenovo, Mac, Asus) and each sounded different enough.
On which platforms the IO-12 sounds best in your opinion? iOS, Android, Linux, Mac OS X etc?

 

[angelom]

That is an exaggeration: they are not diametrically opposing views.
1. With the given track, the boominess of the IO-12 is less apparent

Maybe is you exaggerating with your “(lots of bass heaviness) for which we can mainly thank Sony... and younger generations which grew up thinking this is the good sound” comment.

Also, @hutzelmeier saying a long time ago in this thread that the tonal balance of his HD800S is very similar to his iO-12, a view that I sharing with him when comparing my iO-12 and HD800.

 

[zolkis]

Maybe is you exaggerating with your “lots of bass heaviness) for which we can mainly thank Sony... and younger generations which grew up thinking this is the good sound” comment.

Maybe. But I am getting the same remarks from colleagues and friends, mostly non-audiophiles, even from people who like bass, for quite a large range of ANC headphones.
Based on what I hear from people for a long time, I think this is not exaggerated, but a proper investigation/analysis would be more exact.
Measurements also confirm it, and I don't hear this effect to this extent from my other headphones (even if they are bass heavy), so I still stand by my opinion.

 

[Dalmonegrig]

On which platforms the IO-12 sounds best in your opinion? iOS, Android, Linux, Mac OS X etc?

Roon!
I got the best sound from the DALI iO-12 with a direct USB connection to the Lumin U2 (Roon Only mode) and from Roon Nucleus Plus (Qobuz) => USB => DALI iO-12 (direct DSP settings)

I rechecked the SQ again.
In my SQ testing conditions, DALI iO-12 connection via USB (priority)

1. Roon Nucleus Plus + Qobuz - SQ better detail, volume control, step ±1.


2. Laptop + Qobuz standard application - SQ very good, volume control, step ±2.


3. Phone + Roon - SQ good.

I admit that for some people SQ 3, 2 will be enough.

 

[angelom]

Measurements also confirm it

No, they don’t. And we don’t have confirmation of correct measurements for “hi-fi” setting with “bass” off, and both raw and compensated graphs.

The comments about your friends and colleagues are irrelevant — we don’t know the many variables for that conclusion if is true. And, coincidentally, we also having people here and in some reviews saying that bass isn’t sufficient for some people!

 

[hutzelmeier]

But these are mostly futile comparisons - even the fact that people do actually compare headphone systems of this level (~4-12x price difference) with the IO-12, speaks volumes for Dali. We have come far, indeed.

Yes – I did not mean that the IO-12 comes close to the X9K, or even the HD800S – but as you wrote in an earlier post, it reminds to it... I guess we simply love the IO-12 for what it is, and that’s (in many cases) enough.

 

[zolkis]

No, they don’t. And we don’t have confirmation of correct measurements for “hi-fi” setting with “bass” off, and both raw and compensated graphs.

Yes, they do, at least infinitely more than your or anyone else's opinions, biased views or wishful thinking.

The comments about your friends and colleagues are irrelevant — we don’t know the many variables for that conclusion if is true. And, coincidentally, we also having people here and in some reviews saying that bass isn’t sufficient for some people!

No, they are not irrelevant. If they were, this whole forum was irrelevant.

 

[angelom]

Yes, they do, at least infinitely more than your or anyone else's opinions, biased views or wishful thinking.



No, they are not irrelevant. If they were, this whole forum was irrelevant.

No, they don’t. And I will not insisting about why measurements until today aren’t yet conclusive, and what for you is heavy bass or not.

About the irrelevance of your friends and colleagues, that’s only what you say NOT what we seeing here in this thread. Ask ALL your friends and colleagues that they must posting here and speak about their previous experience with headphones, how long they spending with the iO-12. type of music used, etc. , etc. , etc.

You are NOT immune to “your opinions, biased views, wishful thinking”…AND not infrequent exaggerations.

 

[polymathic]

On the bass disagreement topic, I think everyone is correct. Seriously, the bass intensity in HiFi with no ANC varies based on fit. First, when they were new, they seemed a bit bloated, but as ear pads settled in they became clearer. Additionally, the first week I listened intently with no glasses on. Now, I listen often with my glasses on, and they have less bass with glasses. It follows that the shape and size of one's head likely has an impact on bass.

 

[angelom]

On the bass disagreement topic, I think everyone is correct. Seriously, the bass intensity in HiFi with no ANC varies based on fit. First, when they were new, they seemed a bit bloated, but as ear pads settled in they became clearer. Additionally, the first week I listened intently with no glasses on. Now, I listen often with my glasses on, and they have less bass with glasses. It follows that the shape and size of one's head likely has an impact on bass.

Is nice that you trying --and I know that this is with the best of your intentions-- bringing a little 'peace' between zolkis and I. You know that I value several of your contributions in head-fi, but this time I have in my mind several comments that I want making where I think that some of your comments in your post aren't completely in the right target, or maybe even a little more far from correct (the is independently of the disagreements between zolkis and I).

BUT, being little temperamental (but still serious about trying my best objective analysis), I think this exercise for me isn't appropriate now. So, I deciding instead using the next track for showing what a good (very close to) neutral/reference headphone, like the iO-12, can doing with this music. Even if is a YouTube version, this recording is very decent. A bassy headphone will having problems reproducing several or many of the sounds from the 3 drummers, and when this drummers are playing with the rest of the band the more frustration for the listener that wanting better sound reproduction. The iO-12 is very clearly passing this test with very, very good top marks.

 

[zolkis]

On the bass preference topic, this is not at all new, there have been earlier discussions and even research on it - it's not something I pulled out of my head to irritate @angelom.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/why-the-exaggerated-bass.361589/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886997000858
(the article is from 1997, so it's pretty old - but signals the existence of the phenomenon, deemed worthy to study).

I'd say @polymathic is right when (ironically?) saying "on the bass disagreement topic, I think everyone is correct.", and that bass level varies with fit (seal).
In the end, feel free to define your preference of bass, but measurements tend to be more accurate (although the seal and coupling is a factor there, too).
The IO-12 remains a bassy headphone with or without ANC, just like every other BT/ANC headphone out there so far, and most of the closed back headphones.
There is nothing demeaning in this, just a property, something people might actually even prefer.
But don't expect electrostatic-like qualities, despite Dali marketing.
The good news for those who find the IO-12 too bassy around 60-80 Hz, like I did (and my measurements), then it's possible to improve the situation quite much, by ear pad mods (reducing the foam mass/thickness in the ear pads), or by changing the ear pads (with an adaptor), though the former is far more reproducible.

If you wear glasses or your head/hearing anatomy/preference matches better with the IO-12, you might not have this problem. Each to their own.

 

[angelom]

Fact: Many people --even people with good ears and long experience in audio-- think that Stax headphones have a problem reproducing bass correctly / realistically. In general bass reproduction is not the more strong aspect of Stax headphones. Of course (big) fans of Stax will often saying that any person thinking that Stax headphones are bass-light are in reality bass-heads.

Fact: Some people also complaining about the Sennheiser HD800 not having sufficiently accurate / realistic bass performance.

Fact: There is still today --after many, many years-- a debate about what is the best / more correct / more realistic frequency graph for a headphone. If the graph you preferring is one with less bass presence, then anything deviating in upward position in low frequencies this people will often calling this deviation a bass-heavy / bass-head headphone.

Like I saying already, you see in different articles and in this thread that some people thinking that the iO-12, in "Hi-Fi" mode and ANC Off, is sounding lean in low frequencies reproduction.