[behemothkat]

@Bompah can you also test with APM James Black - Limit to Your Love? How will it drive low freqs?

 

[angelom]

@Bompah can you also test with APM James Black - Limit to Your Love? How will it drive low freqs?

I know that you don't asking me, but I'm curious and I testing the song (I think you meaning James Blake not Black, by the way) and surprisingly, for me, this is one very rare track that I liking more with the APM!... but only a little, even when the sub-bass is a little too much with the APM.

After that I playing A Punchup at a Wedding by Radiohead, and comparing with both headphones is very clear preference for me with the h95. I don't describing several things now where the h95 is very clearly more correct, for me, AND more enjoyable too.

 

[behemothkat]

I know that you don't asking me, but I'm curious and I testing the song (I think you meaning James Blake not Black, by the way) and surprisingly, for me, this is one very rare track that I liking more with the APM!... but only a little, even when the sub-bass is a little too much with the APM.

After that I playing A Punchup at a Wedding by Radiohead, and comparing with both headphones is very clear preference for me with the h95. I don't describing several things now where the h95 is very clearly more correct, for me, AND more enjoyable too.

Sorry, I was pretty sure you did return already your APM, thus did not ask to check this track
Yes, of course it is Blake - i did post my message from phone, autocorrection works very smoothly.
Can you try “In the Air Tonight” from upper list on your H95 wired? Do you have distorted lows as well? Thx!

 

[Bompah]

@Bompah can you also test with APM James Black - Limit to Your Love? How will it drive low freqs?

I've had to listen via YouTube music since I don't own the track but it seems to represent the bass frequencies well, it sounds like a more atmospheric bass heavily focused in the sub-bass which the APM excels at. What I also notice is that the recessed midrange is slightly affecting the piano making it more recessed than I think is the creators intent. What may be worth mentioning is the APM removes some of the mid-bass punch/body compared to a quick listen with my main rig.

Compared to the APM on the H95 there is a bit more harshness on the vocals (treble issue showing itself again), the H95 overblows the bass, placing most of it in the mid-bass. As the track has very few other sounds it doesn't directly ruin anything, but it lacks heft and it far too mid-bass forward, with all the bass texture stripped out.

Since I had both headphones out I did a few quick comparisons on some tracks:

Tool - Ticks and leeches confirms further what I have already consistently observed, the treble on the H95 creates unnatural cymbal sounds and while it give a more immediate bass presentation than the APM it has essentially removed all the bass texture. The APM instead lacks a bit of mid-bass punch and immediacy compared to the H95. But overall it is more textured and retains more detail overall and has a more natural timbre.

Ghost (BC) - Miasma is atmospheric and fairly correct sounding overall with a lot of sub-bass presence, again, the mid-range is not quite as immediate as on the Empys but the details are mostly all there. On the H95 the cymbals are completely washed out and the bell/tambourine like sound is incredibly artificial sounding and way too harsh on the H95. The mid-bass again is overblown and muddies the lower midrange and the track overall.

Meshuggah - Bleed is a bit of a torture test for the H95, the regular cymbal hits are splashy and fake sounding with the timbre completely off. Somehow it doesn't overblow the kick-drums but they do sound off and lacking of texture, it makes the track sound chaotic and unstructured. Comparatively on the APM the texture is back on the kick-drums and the cymbals sound fine in the mix, overall a decent rendition lacking a bit of the typical punch.

Alice in Chains - Nutshell (Unplugged) sounds good on the APM, the emotion of the track is maintained, the sub bass does get a tad too much space in the mix and it is clear from Layne's vocals that the mids are a bit recessed. The APM also shows off decent (not stellar) imaging for the track. On the H95 the guitar timbre is off, it is too metallic and the bass guitar lacks a bit of texture. The H95 does slightly better controlling the bass guitar from dominating the mix (probably due to a lack of sub-bass), but completely loses that advantage on the kick-drum which is allowed to just thump over everything. The emotion of the track has been mostly wiped out, and it is all a bit of a mess. The imaging is fairly similar to the APM, when you're allowed to hear the other instruments "clearly".

Conclusion
That is where I am going to leave it, the H95s will be cleaned off and put in their case which will go in the cardboard box. My initial instinct regarding these headphones was right, and I should have heeded it back in September and returned them when I could. They have a mid-bass problem, and artificial overly metallic treble. What I am starting to notice in my listening is that they also have an overall metallic timbre, which really isn't to my taste.

They are not a bad headphone overall, they are just fine. If they were £399 like their predecessors you might even argue that they offer decent value considering the build. I am lucky not to have scuffed the anodization yet, but looking at the sides of the ear cups I have concerns that that will come right off with even slight contact with other metal.

I was also very disappointed with the dials. If they had just said "nice convenient dials for fine-tuned volume and ANC control" it would have been fine. But they compared them to the focus ring of a high quality camera lens. I happen to own several high quality cameral lenses and the experience is far from it. On a camera lens you get decent resistance allowing you to make minute adjustments with a satisfying feel, on the H95 they just spin with very little resistance. So a failure of marketing really, they are fine as is, but not what was sold to us.

However, this does not mean the APM is a perfect headphone with my ideal signature, they just sound better to me, for what I listen to, and what I prefer. Turning aside, I think they are likely to be objectively better than the H95 because they have less problem with their reproduction of different sounds across the frequency range, and I'm guessing, better implemented DSP. The case is still a bit of a joke, and fact the headphones "clack" together when you take them out of the case without keeping them separated is annoying.

The lighting port is offensive as a design choice. Anyone who has invested any real money in the Apple ecosystem doesn't really use lightning, we have iPads pro and Mac Books with USB-C, wireless charges for our Airpods (pro) and iPhones. The fact I've had to make special accommodations to charge the headphones is a PITA, they really need to dump this port and get on the USB-C train fully.

I'm sure some of you will disagree and espouse the virtues of the H95 as the king of ANC/Bluetooth. And I'm happy you've found the headphone for you, I really am. Enjoy it and I'll see you around the forums.

 

[behemothkat]

I've had to listen via YouTube music since I don't own the track but it seems to represent the bass frequencies well, it sounds like a more atmospheric bass heavily focused in the sub-bass which the APM excels at. What I also notice is that the recessed midrange is slightly affecting the piano making it more recessed than I think is the creators intent. What may be worth mentioning is the APM removes some of the mid-bass punch/body compared to a quick listen with my main rig.

Compared to the APM on the H95 there is a bit more harshness on the vocals (treble issue showing itself again), the H95 overblows the bass, placing most of it in the mid-bass. As the track has very few other sounds it doesn't directly ruin anything, but it lacks heft and it far too mid-bass forward, with all the bass texture stripped out.

Since I had both headphones out I did a few quick comparisons on some tracks:

Tool - Ticks and leeches confirms further what I have already consistently observed, the treble on the H95 creates unnatural cymbal sounds and while it give a more immediate bass presentation than the APM it has essentially removed all the bass texture. The APM instead lacks a bit of mid-bass punch and immediacy compared to the H95. But overall it is more textured and retains more detail overall and has a more natural timbre.

Ghost (BC) - Miasma is atmospheric and fairly correct sounding overall with a lot of sub-bass presence, again, the mid-range is not quite as immediate as on the Empys but the details are mostly all there. On the H95 the cymbals are completely washed out and the bell/tambourine like sound is incredibly artificial sounding and way too harsh on the H95. The mid-bass again is overblown and muddies the lower midrange and the track overall.

Meshuggah - Bleed is a bit of a torture test for the H95, the regular cymbal hits are splashy and fake sounding with the timbre completely off. Somehow it doesn't overblow the kick-drums but they do sound off and lacking of texture, it makes the track sound chaotic and unstructured. Comparatively on the APM the texture is back on the kick-drums and the cymbals sound fine in the mix, overall a decent rendition lacking a bit of the typical punch.

Alice in Chains - Nutshell (Unplugged) sounds good on the APM, the emotion of the track is maintained, the sub bass does get a tad too much space in the mix and it is clear from Layne's vocals that the mids are a bit recessed. The APM also shows off decent (not stellar) imaging for the track. On the H95 the guitar timbre is off, it is too metallic and the bass guitar lacks a bit of texture. The H95 does slightly better controlling the bass guitar from dominating the mix (probably due to a lack of sub-bass), but completely loses that advantage on the kick-drum which is allowed to just thump over everything. The emotion of the track has been mostly wiped out, and it is all a bit of a mess. The imaging is fairly similar to the APM, when you're allowed to hear the other instruments "clearly".

Conclusion
That is where I am going to leave it, the H95s will be cleaned off and put in their case which will go in the cardboard box. My initial instinct regarding these headphones was right, and I should have heeded it back in September and returned them when I could. They have a mid-bass problem, and artificial overly metallic treble. What I am starting to notice in my listening is that they also have an overall metallic timbre, which really isn't to my taste.

They are not a bad headphone overall, they are just fine. If they were £399 like their predecessors you might even argue that they offer decent value considering the build. I am lucky not to have scuffed the anodization yet, but looking at the sides of the ear cups I have concerns that that will come right off with even slight contact with other metal.

I was also very disappointed with the dials. If they had just said "nice convenient dials for fine-tuned volume and ANC control" it would have been fine. But they compared them to the focus ring of a high quality camera lens. I happen to own several high quality cameral lenses and the experience is far from it. On a camera lens you get decent resistance allowing you to make minute adjustments with a satisfying feel, on the H95 they just spin with very little resistance. So a failure of marketing really, they are fine as is, but not what was sold to us.

However, this does not mean the APM is a perfect headphone with my ideal signature, they just sound better to me, for what I listen to, and what I prefer. Turning aside, I think they are likely to be objectively better than the H95 because they have less problem with their reproduction of different sounds across the frequency range, and I'm guessing, better implemented DSP. The case is still a bit of a joke, and fact the headphones "clack" together when you take them out of the case without keeping them separated is annoying.

The lighting port is offensive as a design choice. Anyone who has invested any real money in the Apple ecosystem doesn't really use lightning, we have iPads pro and Mac Books with USB-C, wireless charges for our Airpods (pro) and iPhones. The fact I've had to make special accommodations to charge the headphones is a PITA, they really need to dump this port and get on the USB-C train fully.

I'm sure some of you will disagree and espouse the virtues of the H95 as the king of ANC/Bluetooth. And I'm happy you've found the headphone for you, I really am. Enjoy it and I'll see you around the forums.

Thanks a lot for very detailed reply and suggesting other tracks to listen. Are you using H95 wired or wireless? If both, did you experience any difference?

 

[Bompah]

Thanks a lot for very detailed reply and suggesting other tracks to listen. Are you using H95 wired or wireless? If both, did you experience any difference?

Always wireless. If I can be tethered by a cable for my listeing I have far better headphones than either the H95 or APM.

 

[angelom]

Sorry, I was pretty sure you did return already your APM, thus did not ask to check this track
Yes, of course it is Blake - i did post my message from phone, autocorrection works very smoothly.
Can you try “In the Air Tonight” from upper list on your H95 wired? Do you have distorted lows as well? Thx!

I can't testing with the cable now, so I using only BT in the 2 headphones.

I can't relating with Bompah's impressions at all. For me this song is sounding better with the h95. I hearing more mud in the APM, and better separation in the h95. Sometimes the low sounds of the drums in APM is a little much and this is affecting the rest of the sound of the song. The vocals are sounding a little recessed too in the APM.

Tonight I will trying with the h95 cable and telling you what I think, but I don't have cable for APM.

 

[angelom]

One of my favourite songs by Tool is The Grudge. Is not only a great song but the changes in the music are excellent. For me the h95 again is giving a more correct reproduction of the sound. Both the vocals and the guitar are sounding a little distant in the APM and this is giving a little more big sensation of soundstage but is missing the guitar crunch and excellent vocal performance and can sounding little hollow. The toms (drums) are sometimes, again, taking more prominent role in the complete sonic picture. Is still very nice with the APM I must admitting, but is clearly grabbing my attention and emotions more with the h95.

 

[rael67]

I‘m very excited when I will get my APM at the end of next week. Big thanks to angelom and Bompah for testing so much. I’m wondering how some songs, which pleasing me very much on the H95, will sound on the APM. For example „Grace Jones - Slave to the rhythm (Hot blooded version)“ or „Dave Brubeck - Take five“ or „Manu Katché - Keep on Trippin‘“ sound absolut famous for me on the H95. I‘m wondering, if APM will be as good.

 

[Bompah]

One of my favourite songs by Tool is The Grudge. Is not only a great song but the changes in the music are excellent. For me the h95 again is giving a more correct reproduction of the sound. Both the vocals and the guitar are sounding a little distant in the APM and this is giving a little more big sensation of soundstage but is missing the guitar crunch and excellent vocal performance and can sounding little hollow. The toms (drums) are sometimes, again, taking more prominent role in the complete sonic picture. Is still very nice with the APM I must admitting, but is clearly grabbing my attention and emotions more with the h95.

Considering your prevalence in this thread and your oft mentions of the H95 in the APM thread, I take it you listen to the H95 regularly, and that this is your main headphone for listening? I also assume you are aware that we create preference bias based on what we are used to, not just with sound but with most things. Have you done an A/B test where you have a third, superior source which can be used as the reference for "correct"? The reason I ask is because you appear to be doing A/B tests where one of the headphones (from what I can tell) is the source of your bias. "Sounds correct" will not carry much value if you have preference bias for one of the headphones, and is why I used the Empys to set a baseline for my main testing.

To be clear, I don't think either headphone gives a good representation of Tool's music (or any music for that matter). The APM (as I've said) scoops out a bit of the mid-range and has a tad too much sub-bass and misses some of the mid-bass punch. The H95 (as I have mentioned several times) has a mid-bass hump which bleeds into the mid-range, artificial treble, and metallic timbre. Both headphones are closed-back so lack soundstage, they lack detail, they lack proper punch, they lack control, and they don't fully convey the emotion of the music.

They are Bluetooth ANC headphones, they are both decent for what they are, and probably at the top of their category (I have too little interest in this category to try the plastic crap put out by Sony or Bose). Of the two, I personally prefer the presentation in the APM as (to me) it doesn't "damage" the music as much as the H95 does. They are both clearly overpriced, but the H95 more so than the APM on account of the fact that it costs another £150. They should both be around £450 and for the H95 I'm giving it that just because of all the extra stuff it comes with compared to the AMP, the headphone with just the charge cable should have cost the same as its predecessors (£399).

I'm going to leave my involvement with this discussion here. Once my (numbered!) H95s have been sold I won't be able to provide any useful information about them since I won't have a pair to hand. I wish you all much enjoyment from your headphones, whatever make, model, or tuning (bass cannons or treble knives) they may be.

All the best and happy listening.

 

[angelom]

Considering your prevalence in this thread and your oft mentions of the H95 in the APM thread, I take it you listen to the H95 regularly, and that this is your main headphone for listening? I also assume you are aware that we create preference bias based on what we are used to, not just with sound but with most things. Have you done an A/B test where you have a third, superior source which can be used as the reference for "correct"? The reason I ask is because you appear to be doing A/B tests where one of the headphones (from what I can tell) is the source of your bias. "Sounds correct" will not carry much value if you have preference bias for one of the headphones, and is why I used the Empys to set a baseline for my main testing.

Yes, I listening to h95 regularly because of the wonderful convenience. When speaking of 'correct' sound, yes, sometimes I doing comparison with my 3 reference sources: hd800, hd600 and UERM (Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor) IEM (maybe you don't knowing the UERM, if not, look online what this excellent custom IEM is). I compare more actually with my hd600 because the h800 having peaky treble, and even if hd800 is technically better, the hd600 is a great headphone with excellent linear curve (except for sub-bass).

To be clear, I don't think either headphone gives a good representation of Tool's music (or any music for that matter). The APM (as I've said) scoops out a bit of the mid-range and has a tad too much sub-bass and misses some of the mid-bass punch. The H95 (as I have mentioned several times) has a mid-bass hump which bleeds into the mid-range, artificial treble, and metallic timbre. Both headphones are closed-back so lack soundstage, they lack detail, they lack proper punch, they lack control, and they don't fully convey the emotion of the music.

Yes, h95 or APM don't giving the best representation of Tool (or other music). But after comparing already many times, my opinion is the h95 is more correct, even if not perfect. And even when yes, is having more mid-bass than APM, I really think b&o doing so good job that the mid-bass is very, very rarely offensive and, in fact, is often adding to more 'realism'. The metallic timbre of h95 you often mentioning is, for me, little exaggeration. Yes, timbre isn't perfect (this is BT!), but, in contrast, I sometimes finding little grainy sound and less than acceptable hollow sound in the APM presentation.

They are Bluetooth ANC headphones, they are both decent for what they are, and probably at the top of their category (I have too little interest in this category to try the plastic crap put out by Sony or Bose). Of the two, I personally prefer the presentation in the APM as (to me) it doesn't "damage" the music as much as the H95 does. They are both clearly overpriced, but the H95 more so than the APM on account of the fact that it costs another £150. They should both be around £450 and for the H95 I'm giving it that just because of all the extra stuff it comes with compared to the AMP, the headphone with just the charge cable should have cost the same as its predecessors (£399).

Is a reason why the 'plastic crap' bose and other manufacturers are using: comfort and weight (I don't liking plastic headphones either). Apple doing good job, BUT the hype is so much now that very little people are commenting about the reality that the APM isn't so comfortable for more long sessions (after 1-2 hours). Bose, for me, is better than Sony in construction quality, and Sennheiser (momentum 3) is between bose/sony and b&o/Apple.

When you speaking of the price, maybe both APM and h95 are overpriced, but I already explaining more than one time why the APM maybe is more overpriced, specially in Europe.

 

[angelom]

My last post about comparing the APM and H95 today. I'm listening to The Holy Drinker by Steven Wilson. I don't describing the differences in detail of the 2 headphones, but the h95 is so clearly more correct: the clarity, instrument separation and lack of 'APM veil'...

 

[Bompah]

The fact you use the HD600 as reference does explains a lot, considering it is a mid-centric headphone without sub-bass. With that as a reference I expect the APM will sound very off. You also seem very adamant to prove that other people are wrong; I did give you the benefit of the doubt earlier in this thread when people said you attack any statement which you consider casting dispersions on the H95, but I'm starting to think I might have been too generous.

Anyway, I'm glad you enjoy the H95 and I hope you get many months of use out of it before the next great thing comes along. I won't engage with you anymore as it seems like a waste of my time. All the best!

Yes, I listening to h95 regularly because of the wonderful convenience. When speaking of 'correct' sound, yes, sometimes I doing comparison with my 3 reference sources: hd800, hd600 and UERM (Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor) IEM (maybe you don't knowing the UERM, if not, look online what this excellent custom IEM is). I compare more actually with my hd600 because the h800 having peaky treble, and even if hd800 is technically better, the hd600 is a great headphone with excellent linear curve (except for sub-bass).




Yes, h95 or APM don't giving the best representation of Tool (or other music). But after comparing already many times, my opinion is the h95 is more correct, even if not perfect. And even when yes, is having more mid-bass than APM, I really think b&o doing so good job that the mid-bass is very, very rarely offensive and, in fact, is often adding to more 'realism'. The metallic timbre of h95 you often mentioning is, for me, little exaggeration. Yes, timbre isn't perfect (this is BT!), but, in contrast, I sometimes finding little grainy sound and less than acceptable hollow sound in the APM presentation.



Is a reason why the 'plastic crap' bose and other manufacturers are using: comfort and weight (I don't liking plastic headphones either). Apple doing good job, BUT the hype is so much now that very little people are commenting about the reality that the APM isn't so comfortable for more long sessions (after 1-2 hours). Bose, for me, is better than Sony in construction quality, and Sennheiser (momentum 3) is between bose/sony and b&o/Apple.

When you speaking of the price, maybe both APM and h95 are overpriced, but I already explaining more than one time why the APM maybe is more overpriced, specially in Europe.

 

[angelom]

The fact you use the HD600 as reference does explains a lot, considering it is a mid-centric headphone without sub-bass. With that as a reference I expect the APM will sound very off.

Yes, the hd600 is more mid centric, but I using the hd800 too and the UERM that having better extesion. AND, the h95 is having real sub-bass that isn't elevated like APM, so I'm not only comparing with hd600 (only some frequencies reproduction).

You also seem very adamant to prove that other people are wrong; I did give you the benefit of the doubt earlier in this thread when people said you attack any statement which you consider casting dispersions on the H95, but I'm starting to think I might have been too generous.

If this is your opinion, fine. I respect the people that don't liking the h95, specially if, like you, they having experience. The h95, like the APM in some aspects, is easy target for easy criticism because of the price specially. However, you have experience, I have experience, you are native English speaker and writing very long detailed postings about your opinions. This is great and helpful. With a person like you, even if I can't expressing myself so well, like you, I feeling I can show my disagreement, even if this disagreement is strong sometimes, without insulting the person. For me isn't about the fact you don't preferring the h95 but how extraordinarily critical you are of this headphone in comparison with APM that I think is very good too, but not so good like h95. For me the h95 is a better headphone in sound and in other aspects too. The APM is a great headphone in some aspects, and this is one reason I'm not returning yet, but I trying and trying and still looking like I'm returning it.

Anyway, I'm glad you enjoy the H95 and I hope you get many months of use out of it before the next great thing comes along. I won't engage with you anymore as it seems like a waste of my time. All the best!

And I'm happy you're enjoying the APM. Not a problem for me not engaging with you either. I think in this moment I agree that is waste of time. Keep safe!

 

[angelom]

Sorry, I was pretty sure you did return already your APM, thus did not ask to check this track
Yes, of course it is Blake - i did post my message from phone, autocorrection works very smoothly.
Can you try “In the Air Tonight” from upper list on your H95 wired? Do you have distorted lows as well? Thx!

Ok, I trying with the 3,5mm cable connected to my MacBook Pro 16-inch few minutes ago and I don't hearing distortion. In fact I think maybe with the cable the sound of the bass is a little more clean, but the difference, if is really any at all, is very minimal.