[PhMZ4]

A friend of mine that builds and voices hi-end speakers (with very good ears) has recently tried the Denafrips Top Line gear (Apollo amplifier + Anthena pre + Terminator Plus DAC + Gaia) with his speakers.

He owns some Audio-GD products (the "2018" R8 DAC, the Master 1 pre and the Master 2H mono amplifiers) and also a Matrix XSabre Pro DAC.

Here are his "overall" thoughts:

- He liked very much Apollo amp. He called it a beast. He loved it's control over the bass frequencies mostly. He said he never felt the same base in his speakers. I think it prefered it over his 2H monos, but he hasn't tried Kingwas new HE-2 Mk2. That would be a good comparison to hear!

- He found the Anthena pre very similar to the Audio-GD M1. Very transparent.

- He liked the Terminator Plus DAC, but overrated for the price. He found it very similar to the Matrix DAC and he prefered the R8 DAC on his speakers. He felt the T+ DAC had better bass control, but the R8 had more natural sound. He found the T+ DAC too expensive for the perfomance. He has also told me that one of the best sounds he has ever heard was his 2018 R8 DAC connected to a DI-20HE plus a good Master clock.

- He didn't get along with the Denafrips Gaia. I didn't ask what he meant with that, but it seems he didn't like it.

He's not a guy who will write a full review and he tried he Denafrips line because he was thinking about upgrading his Audio-GD rig So he will not describe me the whole experience with detail, but I trust his ears and honesty with me. I will ask him if he will buy any Denafrip product after the test.

Based on all discussions on this thread, could one explain this sentence from Pedro’s friend ‘...one of the best sounds he has ever heard was his 2018 R8 DAC connected to a DI-20HE plus a good Master clock ?

As the R8 is reclocking the incoming I2S signal from the DI20 using its local Accusilicons, how can a 10M master clock on the DI20 improve the overall SQ as I’m supposing most benefits will disappear in the DAC internal reclocking process, or am I wrong?

 

[FredA]

Based on all discussions on this thread, could one explain this sentence from Pedro’s friend ‘...one of the best sounds he has ever heard was his 2018 R8 DAC connected to a DI-20HE plus a good Master clock ?

As the R8 is reclocking the incoming I2S signal from the DI20 using its local Accusilicons, how can a 10M master clock on the DI20 improve the overall SQ as I’m supposing most benefits will disappear in the DAC internal reclocking process, or am I wrong?

Theoretically, but in practice, it sounds better with the ext clock. I have no idea why.

But the gain is much greater connecting the ext. clock to the dac when possible.

 

[PLGA]

Based on all discussions on this thread, could one explain this sentence from Pedro’s friend ‘...one of the best sounds he has ever heard was his 2018 R8 DAC connected to a DI-20HE plus a good Master clock ?

As the R8 is reclocking the incoming I2S signal from the DI20 using its local Accusilicons, how can a 10M master clock on the DI20 improve the overall SQ as I’m supposing most benefits will disappear in the DAC internal reclocking process, or am I wrong?

I have the following digital rig:

1- Uptone Etherregen "with" a 75 ohm 10 Mhz master clock input.
2- SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo SE "without" a master clock input.
3- Audio-GD DI-20 "with" a 50 ohm 10 Mhz master clock input. Firmware: V3.933, wich I believe some DI users said that betters the perfomance of internal clocks vs external and they tested it with very expensive master clocks like Mutec.
4- 2018 model R7-HE with V2 boards, Accusilicons and HDMI upgrade, but "without" a master clock input. Firmware: R-7_Parallel_DOP1.1 (I believe an asynchronous one)

The connection between the DI-20 and R7-HE is the budget, but good Belden HDMI cable.

I really find the digital processing knowledge "very" hard to understand and I have almost no time to study the subject, so I keep it simple: "I trust my ears".

I also have a cheap 50 ohm 10 Mhz clock (Oscilloquartz 8663-XS) fed by a cheap chinese LPS and a cheap BNC cable. A few nights ago I tried the DI-20 with internal clocks vs the Oscilloquartz. I found the difference not big, but noticeable, mostly with more instrument separation and clarity. Again, not night and day, but worthwile for the money. Also, I'm pretty sure about the difference as it was very simple and fast to test it, just stopping the song and changing from "I" to "E" on the DI-20 front panel.

As I didn't realize that I could order my Uptone ER with a 50 ohm clock input, it came with a 75 ohm one and it's impossible for me to change it as I live abroad. So, I'm waiting now for a 75 to 50 ohm adapter from Afterdark. If my cheap external clock also betters the sound of the ER internal clock, I think I will go ahead and buy a good 10 Mhz master clock, maybe from Afterdark.

As I said, I don't have a clue why this cheap external clock betters the sound of the DI-20, but it did and I'm sure a good clock will do it much better.

Also, someone, I think on this thread, I don't remember the name, said that he tried an Afterdark master clock with his ER and DI-20, both feeding his R8 DAC, and he had amazing results and I'm starting to believe it.

If my cheap OXCO also betters the sound of the ER, a good master clock should be a no brainer!! I will let you know my findings.

 

[DACLadder]

I was going to say the same. When using the older R7 it is operating I2S asynchronously and the quality of the I2S input signals affects the sound output. And you can hear a difference when switching int/ext clock on the DI20 only. Upgrade the 10M clock and sound gets even better.

Definitely 10M DAC has more profound affect.

 

[FredA]

I have the following digital rig:

1- Uptone Etherregen "with" a 75 ohm 10 Mhz master clock input.
2- SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo SE "without" a master clock input.
3- Audio-GD DI-20 "with" a 50 ohm 10 Mhz master clock input. Firmware: V3.933, wich I believe some DI users said that betters the perfomance of internal clocks vs external and they tested it with very expensive master clocks like Mutec.
4- 2018 model R7-HE with V2 boards, Accusilicons and HDMI upgrade, but "without" a master clock input. Firmware: R-7_Parallel_DOP1.1 (I believe an asynchronous one)

The connection between the DI-20 and R7-HE is the budget, but good Belden HDMI cable.

I really find the digital processing knowledge "very" hard to understand and I have almost no time to study the subject, so I keep it simple: "I trust my ears".

I also have a cheap 50 ohm 10 Mhz clock (Oscilloquartz 8663-XS) fed by a cheap chinese LPS and a cheap BNC cable. A few nights ago I tried the DI-20 with internal clocks vs the Oscilloquartz. I found the difference not big, but noticeable, mostly with more instrument separation and clarity. Again, not night and day, but worthwile for the money. Also, I'm pretty sure about the difference as it was very simple and fast to test it, just stopping the song and changing from "I" to "E" on the DI-20 front panel.

As I didn't realize that I could order my Uptone ER with a 50 ohm clock input, it came with a 75 ohm one and it's impossible for me to change it as I live abroad. So, I'm waiting now for a 75 to 50 ohm adapter from Afterdark. If my cheap external clock also betters the sound of the ER internal clock, I think I will go ahead and buy a good 10 Mhz master clock, maybe from Afterdark.

As I said, I don't have a clue why this cheap external clock betters the sound of the DI-20, but it did and I'm sure a good clock will do it much better.

Also, someone, I think on this thread, I don't remember the name, said that he tried an Afterdark master clock with his ER and DI-20, both feeding his R8 DAC, and he had amazing results and I'm starting to believe it.

If my cheap OXCO also betters the sound of the ER, a good master clock should be a no brainer!! I will let you know my findings.

Nice going! Probably @emeeve you are refering to.

 

[emeeve]

Yep that was me and it just continues to improve. By the way the clock I got from AfterDark was specific to the Ether-Regen at 75Ohm. I just ordered the 50Ohm cable from AfterDark (the red one) for the Di-20 and a Oyaide Silver 75Ohm cable for the Ether-Regen. The stock cables are decent but definitely the clocks should be elevated with these cables. Now need to find a home for my R8 and move to a R7 to benefit from another external clock from AfterDark. @FredA results have totally convinced me that’s the way to go I believe a R7 MKII (non HE) version is possibly coming soon?

 

[FredA]

Yep that was me and it just continues to improve. By the way the clock I got from AfterDark was specific to the Ether-Regen at 75Ohm. I just ordered the 50Ohm cable from AfterDark (the red one) for the Di-20 and a Oyaide Silver 75Ohm cable for the Ether-Regen. The stock cables are decent but definitely the clocks should be elevated with these cables. Now need to find a home for my R8 and move to a R7 to benefit from another external clock from AfterDark. @FredA results have totally convinced me that’s the way to go I believe a R7 MKII (non HE) version is possibly coming soon?

Not sure there will be an r7 mkii. I hope so.

 

[FredA]

And indeed. The mkii clocked with the afterdark has no hint of being a digital source. The infamous digital glare is it seems caused by jitter.

 

[FredA]

The Afterdark has improved furthermore, it is hard to believe. 5-10%.

For those who heard Denafrips amplification and found the bass well controlled, i can assure you that the m3 gives outstanding control over my Osborn Eclipse but they are an easy load.

One point though, bass firmness and control depends also on the source. Jitter can make the bass fuzzy, cut the lowest frequencies. So if such is the case that is has suboptimal quality out of the dac, the rest of chain can't make up for this or at least the he9/m3 combo just won't. Kingwa has taken the approach of making the most neutral amplification possible and of putting coloration in his souces, just a touch of it.

 

[PLGA]

Yep that was me and it just continues to improve. By the way the clock I got from AfterDark was specific to the Ether-Regen at 75Ohm. I just ordered the 50Ohm cable from AfterDark (the red one) for the Di-20 and a Oyaide Silver 75Ohm cable for the Ether-Regen. The stock cables are decent but definitely the clocks should be elevated with these cables. Now need to find a home for my R8 and move to a R7 to benefit from another external clock from AfterDark. @FredA results have totally convinced me that’s the way to go I believe a R7 MKII (non HE) version is possibly coming soon?

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You have a double 75 ohm output master clock and you connect it to the DI-20 with just a 50 ohm cable.

I mean, you turn a 75 ohm signal into a 50 ohm one with just a 50 ohm cable? Does it work ok that way or does the clock have one 50 ohm and one 75 ohm output? I ask because I have the same exact situation.

By the way, I also have a 2018 R8 DAC, wich I replaced with a 2018 R7-HE DAC. Both have the V2 boards and Acussilicon clocks and, to be honest, comparing both connected with AES/EBU cable to my DI-20, I found the differences smaller than I expected. Don't get me wrong, the R7-HE is sure a better DAC, mostly after the HDMI upgrade, wich made the difference bigger, but if you have a well treated AC line, the R8 is a great DAC for the money. For instance, I have a dedicated AC line, plus a Holton DC Blocker, plus an Audioquest Niagara 1200, plus some audiophiles AC cords, and I think they raised a lot the perfomance of the R8.

 

[emeeve]

2 separate clocks actually of the same model. A 75Ohm output impedance version for the ether-regen and a 50Ohm output impedance version for the DI-20. After dark actually makes a special version of the same clock for the ER in both 50 and 75ohms but since I bought the 75Ohm EG, I bought the clock that matches it and the respective cables.

 

[emeeve]

Getting my dedicated AC line installed next week Like you I also have the Niagara 1200 and a Richard Gray 600. Would keep the R8 as its so good but the R7 with the external clock should give me that extra big bump which I have already experienced with the clocks on the EG and D1-20.

 

[PhMZ4]

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You have a double 75 ohm output master clock and you connect it to the DI-20 with just a 50 ohm cable.

I mean, you turn a 75 ohm signal into a 50 ohm one with just a 50 ohm cable? Does it work ok that way or does the clock have one 50 ohm and one 75 ohm output? I ask because I have the same exact situation.

By the way, I also have a 2018 R8 DAC, wich I replaced with a 2018 R7-HE DAC. Both have the V2 boards and Acussilicon clocks and, to be honest, comparing both connected with AES/EBU cable to my DI-20, I found the differences smaller than I expected. Don't get me wrong, the R7-HE is sure a better DAC, mostly after the HDMI upgrade, wich made the difference bigger, but if you have a well treated AC line, the R8 is a great DAC for the money. For instance, I have a dedicated AC line, plus a Holton DC Blocker, plus an Audioquest Niagara 1200, plus some audiophiles AC cords, and I think they raised a lot the perfomance of the R8.

The impedance has to be matched, especially at 10MHz frequency, as in the case of a mix of 50 Ohm and 75 Ohm, the amount of reflected signal would be quite important and damaging the pure source signal, making the whole meaningless…

 

[DACLadder]

You need a minimum loss matching pad to connect 75<-->50 ohm. They aren't perfect as you will get a loss of 5.7dB across the pad which is 4x less power on its output. Plus limiting bandwidth and small amount of standing waves. But is better than connecting the mismatch directly.

Something like this...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/362592867596?hash=item546c38150c:g:Y2YAAOSwh7tcRFs0

 

[PLGA]

The impedance has to be matched, especially at 10MHz frequency, as in the case of a mix of 50 Ohm and 75 Ohm, the amount of reflected signal would be quite important and damaging the pure source signal, making the whole meaningless…

That's correct. First, I didn't pay attention to the difference impedance of the DI-20 and the ER and I used the 50 ohm clock with both, so I had weird results, mostly with soundstage. I thought it was a problem with DI-20 burning or firmware! Haha...