[sheldaze]

  Makes me wonder if at some point it got really good and they had to dial it back.

I truly wonder this too, from the comments Tyll made at the headphone event (cannot recall the event name). In the video he says they really should stop tweaking - I paraphrase of course. But he was blown away by the product, as-is. And he was a little surprised the headphone was still being tweaked. As-is, it would have taken at least one if not several headphones off the wall of fame.
 
It may also be a manufacturing constraint - at the cost level, certain manufacturer processes could not be done. I have a friend who was recently telling me about the Fostex high end headphones. He watched a video regarding their manufacture process, which was both the reason for the tremendous cost and the great sound.

 

[bracko]

  Makes me wonder if at some point it got really good and they had to dial it back.

While 400S are fantastic headphones at their price point I believe they have their place in the HIFIMAN hierarchy. They probably sound better than other Hifimans when unamplified (all other unamplified). When amplified they are outperformed by other Hifiman models (HE400, HE400i, HE500, HE560 and HE1000). 400S are intended for use with mobile devices and in that segment they are amazing. 

 

[canthearyou]

I enjoy everything about these headphones. But I do wish they had just a bit more bass. Does the 400i have close to the same sound signature with more bass?

I am powering them with a JDS Element.

 

[sheldaze]

I enjoy everything about these headphones. But I do wish they had just a bit more bass. Does the 400i have close to the same sound signature with more bass?

I am powering them with a JDS Element.

Not the same signature - yes, deeper bass.
 
I heard the 400i only at a headphone meet. From that listening, and what I've read here, it is a darker and likely slightly more refined sound. The 400, 400i, and now 400S each have a vastly different sound signature.
 
Without getting too off track, what do you think of the JDS Labs Element - I'm still in my early romance period with it 

 

 

[bracko]

I enjoy everything about these headphones. But I do wish they had just a bit more bass. Does the 400i have close to the same sound signature with more bass?

I am powering them with a JDS Element.

400i have more bass and more textured bass too. The bass goes deeper. It is also easily seen in Tyll's measurements on Innerfidelity. You need a good amp for them. The sound signature is different. 400i are more analytical still darker. 400S a little warmer sounding with less resolution but still a tad brighter than 400i (400i is on the darker side of neutral).
 
I listened to 400S yesterday in my own setup here at home. It was fun comparing these two headphones really. 400i build is a bit more premium quality (actually as premium as HE-560) and has more refined sound overall. Both are very clean sounding really. For $300 HE-400S beats anything else I believe (open and closed). They might sound slightly better than my Fidelio X2 too, although I didn't do extensive comparisons X2 so take this with a grain of salt.

 

[canthearyou]

Not the same signature - yes, deeper bass.

I heard the 400i only at a headphone meet. From that listening, and what I've read here, it is a darker and likely slightly more refined sound. The 400, 400i, and now 400S each have a vastly different sound signature.

Without getting too off track, what do you think of the JDS Labs Element - I'm still in my early romance period with it   

Thanks! I am enjoying the Element. I can't give a proper review because I'm not sure what to say. It's very clear and seems to have plenty of power. I run both X2 and 400s on hi-gain. Music is very dynamic and fun.

400i have more bass and more textured bass too. The bass goes deeper. It is also easily seen in Tyll's measurements on Innerfidelity. You need a good amp for them. The sound signature is different. 400i are more analytical still darker. 400S a little warmer sounding with less resolution but still a tad brighter than 400i (400i is on the darker side of neutral).

I listened to 400S yesterday in my own setup here at home. It was fun comparing these two headphones really. 400i build is a bit more premium quality (actually as premium as HE-560) and has more refined sound overall. Both are very clean sounding really. For $300 HE-400S beats anything else I believe (open and closed). They might sound slightly better than my Fidelio X2 too, although I didn't do extensive comparisons X2 so take this with a grain of salt.

The vocals and mids of 400s dominate the X2. String instruments are incredibly lifelike IMO. But if I listen to some rap/hip hop the X2 takes the win for the bass.

I think the soundstage on X2 May be too big and causes vocals to sound distant. The 400s vocals on some songs give me goosebumps. So realistic and intimate.

Lol I just purchased the 400i to do a comparison.

 

[Mark Up]

For solid mids in an open headphone with better bass extension, at 1/3 the price, the Sennheiser HD558 wins. I don't own it, but if I needed an inexpensive open set, that would be it. I have the HD650 which is superior to that in every way. Similar bass (the HD558 has a bit more but it was not as precise). The HD650 also has better bass extension than the HE400s. It has full but warmer mids, the HE400S is more forward. They sound very different to me, HD650 better in every way, except high mid brightness, if you're into that.

 

[bracko]

The 400s vocals on some songs give me goosebumps. So realistic and intimate.

 

 
I believe it is the ortho magic 

 

[canthearyou]

For solid mids in an open headphone with better bass extension, for 1/3 the price, the Sennheiser HD558 wins. I don't own it, but if I needed an inexpensive open set, that would be it. I have the HD650 which is superior to that in every way. Similar bass (the HD558 has a touch more but is not as precise). The HD650 also has better bass extension than the HE400s. It has full but warmer mids, the HE400S is more forward. They sound very different to me, the HD650 better in every way except high mid brightness, if you're into that.

I've owned the HD558 but never heard them amped. I used them for gaming. Maybe I'll check them out again.

 

[bracko]

For solid mids in an open headphone with better bass extension, at 1/3 the price, the Sennheiser HD558 wins.

 
Third the price of what headphone? With all respect, HD558 is nowhere near the HE-400i or HE-400S in any aspect of sound.    

 

[Mark Up]

I'm just saying it offers dense mids, not fatiguing highs (like the HE400S) but better bass extension. It is the best $100 pair out there. No, it's not as refined or detailed in the mids of the HE400S, but the existence of subs make flat songs sound warm (rock, jazz) and bassier songs slam (EDM, Hip Hop, etc.). The HE400S is lacking in that warmth and extension. I know some don't care if they can hear low sub bass sounds at all, they don't like a lot of bass in general. For some, a forward mid, flat highs, and rolled off lows is perfect. The HE400S meets their needs perfectly. If they find any boosted lows, even flat lows in better Planar's to be a bit much, these will protect them from that bass attack.

 

[Pianist]

For solid mids in an open headphone with better bass extension, at 1/3 the price, the Sennheiser HD558 wins. I don't own it, but if I needed an inexpensive open set, that would be it. I have the HD650 which is superior to that in every way. Similar bass (the HD558 has a bit more but it was not as precise). The HD650 also has better bass extension than the HE400s. It has full but warmer mids, the HE400S is more forward. They sound very different to me, HD650 better in every way, except high mid brightness, if you're into that.

 
I agree, except that HD558 certainly doesn't have particularly great extension in the bass. I will be surprised if it fares better than HE-400S in this regard.
 
Quote:

   
Third the price of what headphone? With all respect, HD558 is nowhere near the HE-400i or HE-400S in any aspect of sound.    

 
I am pretty sure that I would disagree with this. When was the last time you tried HD558? Have you actually AB'ed them against the more expensive headphones? I haven't tried either of the Hifimans, but I owned HE-500 and it wasn't a huge upgrade from HD558 at all. In fact, I preferred HD558 in some ways because it didn't have the upper midrange recession of the HE-500 and sounded more balanced to me through the mids than the HE-500 did. Admittedly I don't own HD558, but I have a modded HD555 and it sounds almost identical to the HD558s, except that the 558 has a larger soundstage. - I have AB'ed the two directly. My modded HD555 is not far behind my Fidelio X2 and HD600 in sound quality and I would assume that it is not far behind HE-400i and HE-400S either. No, HD555 doesn't have the technicalities of the more expensive headphones, but I do believe that they will get you most of the way there. I hate rating sound in percentages, but here I will say that my modded HD555 is at least 70% of the HD600 and Fidelio X2 in overall sound quality and at least 80% there in midrange quality. And that's my modded HD555, while HD558 is even better. I also find that they improve nicely with stronger amps and better DACs. HD555/558 are superb values for the money IMO and actually one of the best I heard for vocals.

 

[bracko]

I am pretty sure that I would disagree with this. When was the last time you tried HD558? Have you actually AB'ed them against the more expensive headphones? I haven't tried either of the Hifimans, but I owned HE-500 and it wasn't a huge upgrade from HD558 at all. In fact, I preferred HD558 in some ways because it didn't have the upper midrange recession of the HE-500 and sounded more balanced to me through the mids than the HE-500 did. Admittedly I don't own HD558, but I have a modded HD555 and it sounds almost identical to the HD558s, except that the 558 has a larger soundstage. - I have AB'ed the two directly. My modded HD555 is not far behind my Fidelio X2 and HD600 in sound quality and I would assume that it is not far behind HE-400i and HE-400S either. No, HD555 doesn't have the technicalities of the more expensive headphones, but I do believe that they will get you most of the way there. I hate rating sound in percentages, but here I will say that my modded HD555 is at least 70% of the HD600 and Fidelio X2 in overall sound quality and at least 80% there in midrange quality. And that's my modded HD555, while HD558 is even better. I also find that they improve nicely with stronger amps and better DACs. HD555/558 are superb values for the money IMO.

My son has HD558. He use them for playing games in PC. I think you actually described it nicely in your post with that 70% comparison. Three time the price doesn't mean three times better sound quality.

 

[Pianist]

My son has HD558. He use them for playing games in PC. I think you actually described it nicely in your post with that 70% comparison. Three time the price doesn't mean three times better sound quality.

 
Here you are exactly right I think. But in your last post, I think you really exaggerated too much when you wrote that HD558 is "nowhere near" the Hifimans. I think diminishing returns hit hard after HD555/558 level. In particular, if you are looking for great mids, and especially vocals, the HD555/558 may well be all you need if you are not too picky. In fact, there are a multitude of more, sometimes much more expensive headphones than the Sennheisers that fare worse in the midrange. For instance, I think Beyers are guilty of mediocre mids, or perhaps excessively bright highs that make their mids sound unnatural, depending on how you look at it. For vocals, I will take HD555 over DT880 or 990 any day and those Beyers are usually at least 2 times the price of the Senns.
 
Then there's AKG, which has much nicer mids than the Beyers IMO, but I find the midrange on their headphones to be slightly off tonally compared to mids on Sennheiser HD500 and 600 series. In particular, AKG K600 and 700 series have that boost in the upper mids that comes off as slightly shouty and unnatural to my ears. I will take HD555 over a Q701 for vocals. AKG K612 Pro is better balanced in the mids than the K700 series IMO with less of that upper midrange boost, but the emphasis is still there on them and HD555 still sounds a bit more natural in the vocals to me than the K612 Pro, even though the K612 is superior in pretty much every other way (but again, not a huge difference).
 
Finally, the Hifiman planars I tried - HE-500 and HE-6 - are also a little off in the mids. This is especially true of HE-6 which has that mid treble emphasis that reallly masks natural midrange body to my ears. HE-500 is pretty nice in the mids, but has a lower mid dip that makes some voices and instruments in that range less present than they should be. For midrange balance, I will take HD555 over both of the Hifimans, even though the Hifimans are better on a technical level. Who cares about technicalities when music doesn't sound enjoyable? Only sound engineers and crazy audiophiles.

 

 

[raybone0566]

He-400s bests the 558 in everything. I owned the 558's last year. Have the 400, 400s,&560 currently. Just recently sold the he-500's. 558 is a good entry level phone, but can't compete with any of these phones I mentioned. Imaging & seperation is far superior with the higiman's compared to 558. That's just my opinion.