[Mike F]

Nothing beats your own ears. Things tend to get hyped to "lalalaland" especially in audio community

That's very true! I can't remember what you thought of the NDH 30 (IIRC you weren't as impressed as most?), but the thing about the NDH 30 that deserves the hype IMO is the fact that the vast majority of people who have heard it agree that it offers outstanding performance for the price, plus near indestructible build quality. Yes, arguably the HD 800S is 'better' (although I would argue that the soundstage is less natural and 'correct'), but it's twice the price and won't appreciate being sat on or dropped. I'm very careful with my headphones, but accidents happen and I recently pulled my NDH 20s (same construction as the 30s) from a desktop. They hit the wood floor hard - hard enough to crack the plastic parts on the HD 800(S). Not a single sign of damage to the NDH.

 

[bagwell359]

IMO is the fact that the vast majority of people who have heard it agree that it offers outstanding performance for the price

If you survey audiophile/mid-fi headphone sites - Head-Fi is clearly excited. Others have barely noted it presence - I'm not talking pro forums, or sites that sell product which of course worship everything they sell.

I can say that the NDH-30 is a player. I can also say my reaction to it is far better than the OG NDH-20 which I found to be quite awful.

 

[thejewk]

Well let me start with I'm more of a metal/rock guy so I don't know your preferred genres well, though I love to dabble and experiment.

Thank you all for your comments, it sounds to me like it's a done deal. Just a case of waiting for the remaining funds before I pull the trigger.

erics75, I also listen to a fair amount of rock and metal music, and grew up as a bit of a metal head/punk, teaching myself to play the guitar along with Metallica's early albums, and a bit of everything else that I could find. Any comments specifically about performance in those genres would definitely be helpful, if you wouldn't mind.

 

[Mike F]

Lastly, some alternatives if you're interested. Given you seem to want balance and natural/neutral sound, the venerable Sennheiser HD600 is a killer set. It won't match the 30 in any way on a technical level, but for me personally, it's every bit as enjoyable to listen to. It's smoother, softer, and easier to listen to poorly recorded music with it vs the 30's brutally honest approach. The HD650 adds more forward mids and more mid bass to the mix, but doesn't do anything better than the 600 on a technical level. It's just more colored. IMO the 650 is a good balance of fun and neutral. It's colored, but tastefully so. There's also the new HD660S2, which takes the 600/650, mashes them together tonally, and modernizes the technical aspects. It's going to be bassier and more colored than the 30, but not quite as resolving. I'm noticing a fine haze with it vs the 30. But the 600/650 has a much more noticeable haze to them. The S2 splits the difference between the 30 and 600/650, IMO. The 30 is crystal clear sounding vs all the Sennheisers. It's actually the clearest sounding headphone I own (and the least colored).

Great post! One comment on the HD 600 vs the HD 650. It's often overlooked or ignored, but the 650 is actually technically superior to the 600. The THD for instance on the 650 is < 0.05 % (1 kHz, 1 V) whereas on the 600 it's < 0,1 % (1 kHz, 1 V). It beats it in other (less important) areas as well. Personally I've always preferred the tuning of the 650, and it also still has one of the flattest FRs of any headphone on the market. Still a very worthy contender at its price IMO. Easily beaten on every level by the NDH 30 though. The S2 I still haven't heard. I very much suspect that I would think it the best of the six series headphones, but at €600 it's in competition with the NDH 30, and the NDH 30 is in completion with headphones 2-3 times its price.......

 

[Mike F]

If you survey audiophile/mid-fi headphone sites - Head-Fi is clearly excited. Others have barely noted it presence - I'm not talking pro forums, or sites that sell product which of course worship everything they sell.

I can say that the NDH-30 is a player. I can also say my reaction to it is far better than the OG NDH-20 which I found to be quite awful.

Agree, but it is a pro audio headphone. The pro sites have been enthusiastic. The NDH 20 has a totally different user/use target. I'd be surprised if any audiophile thought it was good for general music listening.

Edit: the Black Edition 20 is better than the original - internally balanced, but it's not radically different.

 

[bagwell359]

Great post! One comment on the HD 600 vs the HD 650. It's often overlooked or ignored, but the 650 is actually technically superior to the 600. The THD for instance on the 650 is < 0.05 % (1 kHz, 1 V) whereas on the 600 it's < 0,1 % (1 kHz, 1 V). It beats it in other (less important) areas as well. Personally I've always preferred the tuning of the 650, and it also still has one of the flattest FRs of any headphone on the market. Still a very worthy contender at its price IMO. Easily beaten on every level by the NDH 30 though. The S2 I still haven't heard. I very much suspect that I would think it the best of the six series headphones, but at €600 it's in competition with the NDH 30, and the NDH 30 is in completion with headphones 2-3 times its price.......

.05% vs .1%? On a standard SS amp with popular music, the 650 is very viable. I heard the 650 that way before the 600. But classical/audiophile? OTL tubes (which I rejected for speakers 20 years ago - any type of tube amp) is better IMO w/ the 600 and both versions of the 800 than SS (even high end SS). The 650 just gets more chubby.

From my side the 600 has it over the 650 because it doesn't have the mid/upper bass (150-300 Hz) rise. Due to that it's timbre on solo pianos isn't as good as the 600.

You'll get some very animated conversations here both directions. It's fine with me if some like the 650 more than the 600. But for my uses the 600 > all other variants of the 6** (have not heard the S2 yet).

 

[bagwell359]

Agree, but it is a pro audio headphone. The pro sites have been enthusiastic.

Sure, no argument from me, I don't put much credence in what they say because I've found way to many false leads over time from that quarter and the 3 guys I knew into pro sound as jobs.

The NDH 20 has a totally different user/use target. I'd be surprised if any audiophile thought it was good for general music listening.

Someone here I do respect pointed me at it. Not for me.

Edit: the Black Edition 20 is better than the original - internally balanced, but it's not radically different.

Yeah I've read that, but have no opinion, since I have not heard it.

 

[Mike F]

You'll get some very animated conversations here both directions.

That we can agree on! I was just making the point that the 650 is technically superior to the 600. The tuning remains a matter of taste of course. You don't like the mid/upper bass rise on the 650 (understandable) and I don't like the forward upper mids on the 600. I've just always found it fatiguing. Prefer the 580 Precision for that reason, and IMHO the 650 is just the best of the three.

 

[erics75]

Thank you all for your comments, it sounds to me like it's a done deal. Just a case of waiting for the remaining funds before I pull the trigger.

erics75, I also listen to a fair amount of rock and metal music, and grew up as a bit of a metal head/punk, teaching myself to play the guitar along with Metallica's early albums, and a bit of everything else that I could find. Any comments specifically about performance in those genres would definitely be helpful, if you wouldn't mind.

My opinion on the 30 with metal has changed quite a bit since buying it. At first, I was running it on solid state and a neutral tube amp, and not liking it so much for metal. Granted metal has notoriously poor production quality, and the 30 just brought that to the forefront. I kept putting it aside for more forgiving sets like my Atticus and Atrium Closed. Those smooth over the poor sonic quality and emphasize the power/energy, making metal an absolute blast to listen to. Even the 660S2 is a metal monster. But I kept thinking about the 30 while listening to my metal, and spent a weekend just listening to metal and the 30, and my view changed. Yes the 30 lays bare the poor production, but it also has a sense of honesty and energy I find very alluring. I also changed some tubes in my best tube amp, to something a bit warmer overall, and that was the nail in the coffin, i was hooked.

Guitar strings sound really good on the 30. It has a lot of treble presence but not peaky or fatiguing, just present and refined. I was picking up on the separation of the main and bass guitars on tracks that other headphones cannot separate. I often lose the bass guitar in the cacophony of sound, so being able to pick it out is something new and very welcome. I was also noting subtle drumming particulars that never stood out before. And once my ears acclimated to the slightly leaner signature vs the Atticus/Atrium Closed, it was warm enough to not make me yearn for my warmer sets. Despite pulling out subtle things, I could easily step back and listen from a macro level without issue. Some headphones like the HD800 make me listen analytically, obsessing over micro detail and nuances. I cannot step back with them, no matter how hard I try. The detail just pulls me back. It's like auditory ADHD, I keep chasing little details and losing sight of the macro performance. The 30 walks a fine line of giving me similar detail retrieval without becoming overly distracting. That's just me though, this will be a highly subjective issue.

Going into specifics, I spent a good amount of that weekend on thrash legend Exodus, which is one of my all time favorite bands. Souza's harsh, scratchy screaming lyrical style is hit or miss with all my headphones. Too neutral and it's thin and irritating (HD800, DT 700 Pro X), too dark and it loses it's deliberately raw power and presence (Atticus, HD650). The 30 nails his vocals! It's a bit abrasive, but that's how he sounds. I wasn't fatigued at all. His vocals crown the guitar work which is thick and meaty. Exodus has some insane riffs, they dominate the mids with power and speed. Souza's higher pitched voice mixes perfectly with them as his range is more in the upper mids/treble, and they're in the lower to proper mids. Then there's the drumming. I'm not sure who their drummer is, I tend to focus on Holt's guitar and Souza's vocals. But the drummer is fast, belting out double bass blasts with aplomb. They hit low and hard, and the 30 gives them proper impact and power. Some of their albums are on the thin side production-wise, nothing can be done there. But albums like Shovel Headed Killing Machine sounds full and impactful. The drum blasts are intense, you can feel the pressure waves shiatsu chopping your ear drums. I know, great audiophile blabbery huh? I can't explain it any better though. It's a physically intense experience. Mix all that together and you get pure energy, which the 30 conveys without sacrifice.

I also got in a few hours of Metallica, my first love along with Slayer. Puppets sounds insane on the 30. What I love is how the 30 pulls out the bass guitar work buried behind the Lars' drums and Hetfield's vocals. Bass guitar on Metallica albums always seems like an afterthought, but this is the best i've heard it yet. Lars' drum work is tight and impactful, with just enough energy to drive the groove without becoming overbearing. Hamett's solos are forward and aggressive, as they should be. He's a legend, and those older solos were his prime work, IMO. The 30 pulls that energy and intricacy out easily and lays it bare for you to enjoy. The 30 is one of the best Metallica headphones I own. And Justice for All was an experience as well. Those crunchy powerful riffs and ballistic percussion sounds amazing on the 30. The final act of One is just pure power, and the 30 brings it.

All in all I've gone from "too analytical" to "just right" when it comes to metal with the 30. But I have to be honest in that it's not my first choice. Oddly my first choice for metal has become my HD660S2. It's more colored than the 30 but more balanced than my previous metal king, the Atticus. The 30 is right there though. The only reason I have a SLIGHT preference for the S2 is it's added midbass presence. It's more colored, and brings a bit more meat and impact to the mids, where metal can sound thin at times to me. But it's kind of a band by band preference. Iron Maiden is a prime example of sounding a bit thin and hallow/recessed in the mids (my opinion, don't crucify me!!!!). The 30 makes Dickenson's vocals soar, but the guitar riffs lack a bit of bite and power. The S2 neuters the vocals just a bit, but brings out the drums and guitar work a bit more, adding some much needed weight to the playback. But that doesn't mean the 30 makes Maiden sound bad, it still sounds glorious. But having both at hand, I find the S2 does it just a touch better. But some bands sound better on the 30.

Here's my breakdown of metal bands I like on which headphone most (both do them well, just my personal preferences which are slight):

NDH30:
Metallica
Exodus
Amon Amarth
Pantera
Tool
DevilDriver
Buckethead
John 5
Slash
Jungle Rot
Ozzy
Motorhead

HD660S2:
Iron Maiden
Deep Purple
Megadeth
Slayer
Testament
Overkill
Krisiun
Morbid Angel
Goatwhore (great name!!!!)
Sepultura
Kreator
Death
AC/DC
Guns N Roses
Cavalera Conspiracy
Carcass
Carach Angren
Children of Bodom

 

[thejewk]

My opinion on the 30 with metal has changed quite a bit since buying it. At first, I was running it on solid state and a neutral tube amp, and not liking it so much for metal. Granted metal has notoriously poor production quality, and the 30 just brought that to the forefront. I kept putting it aside for more forgiving sets like my Atticus and Atrium Closed. Those smooth over the poor sonic quality and emphasize the power/energy, making metal an absolute blast to listen to. Even the 660S2 is a metal monster. But I kept thinking about the 30 while listening to my metal, and spent a weekend just listening to metal and the 30, and my view changed. Yes the 30 lays bare the poor production, but it also has a sense of honesty and energy I find very alluring. I also changed some tubes in my best tube amp, to something a bit warmer overall, and that was the nail in the coffin, i was hooked.

Guitar strings sound really good on the 30. It has a lot of treble presence but not peaky or fatiguing, just present and refined. I was picking up on the separation of the main and bass guitars on tracks that other headphones cannot separate. I often lose the bass guitar in the cacophony of sound, so being able to pick it out is something new and very welcome. I was also noting subtle drumming particulars that never stood out before. And once my ears acclimated to the slightly leaner signature vs the Atticus/Atrium Closed, it was warm enough to not make me yearn for my warmer sets. Despite pulling out subtle things, I could easily step back and listen from a macro level without issue. Some headphones like the HD800 make me listen analytically, obsessing over micro detail and nuances. I cannot step back with them, no matter how hard I try. The detail just pulls me back. It's like auditory ADHD, I keep chasing little details and losing sight of the macro performance. The 30 walks a fine line of giving me similar detail retrieval without becoming overly distracting. That's just me though, this will be a highly subjective issue.

Going into specifics, I spent a good amount of that weekend on thrash legend Exodus, which is one of my all time favorite bands. Souza's harsh, scratchy screaming lyrical style is hit or miss with all my headphones. Too neutral and it's thin and irritating (HD800, DT 700 Pro X), too dark and it loses it's deliberately raw power and presence (Atticus, HD650). The 30 nails his vocals! It's a bit abrasive, but that's how he sounds. I wasn't fatigued at all. His vocals crown the guitar work which is thick and meaty. Exodus has some insane riffs, they dominate the mids with power and speed. Souza's higher pitched voice mixes perfectly with them as his range is more in the upper mids/treble, and they're in the lower to proper mids. Then there's the drumming. I'm not sure who their drummer is, I tend to focus on Holt's guitar and Souza's vocals. But the drummer is fast, belting out double bass blasts with aplomb. They hit low and hard, and the 30 gives them proper impact and power. Some of their albums are on the thin side production-wise, nothing can be done there. But albums like Shovel Headed Killing Machine sounds full and impactful. The drum blasts are intense, you can feel the pressure waves shiatsu chopping your ear drums. I know, great audiophile blabbery huh? I can't explain it any better though. It's a physically intense experience. Mix all that together and you get pure energy, which the 30 conveys without sacrifice.

I also got in a few hours of Metallica, my first love along with Slayer. Puppets sounds insane on the 30. What I love is how the 30 pulls out the bass guitar work buried behind the Lars' drums and Hetfield's vocals. Bass guitar on Metallica albums always seems like an afterthought, but this is the best i've heard it yet. Lars' drum work is tight and impactful, with just enough energy to drive the groove without becoming overbearing. Hamett's solos are forward and aggressive, as they should be. He's a legend, and those older solos were his prime work, IMO. The 30 pulls that energy and intricacy out easily and lays it bare for you to enjoy. The 30 is one of the best Metallica headphones I own. And Justice for All was an experience as well. Those crunchy powerful riffs and ballistic percussion sounds amazing on the 30. The final act of One is just pure power, and the 30 brings it.

All in all I've gone from "too analytical" to "just right" when it comes to metal with the 30. But I have to be honest in that it's not my first choice. Oddly my first choice for metal has become my HD660S2. It's more colored than the 30 but more balanced than my previous metal king, the Atticus. The 30 is right there though. The only reason I have a SLIGHT preference for the S2 is it's added midbass presence. It's more colored, and brings a bit more meat and impact to the mids, where metal can sound thin at times to me. But it's kind of a band by band preference. Iron Maiden is a prime example of sounding a bit thin and hallow/recessed in the mids (my opinion, don't crucify me!!!!). The 30 makes Dickenson's vocals soar, but the guitar riffs lack a bit of bite and power. The S2 neuters the vocals just a bit, but brings out the drums and guitar work a bit more, adding some much needed weight to the playback. But that doesn't mean the 30 makes Maiden sound bad, it still sounds glorious. But having both at hand, I find the S2 does it just a touch better. But some bands sound better on the 30.

Thanks for the really detailed response, very helpful!

 

[Satriany]

Thank you all for your comments, it sounds to me like it's a done deal. Just a case of waiting for the remaining funds before I pull the trigger.

erics75, I also listen to a fair amount of rock and metal music, and grew up as a bit of a metal head/punk, teaching myself to play the guitar along with Metallica's early albums, and a bit of everything else that I could find. Any comments specifically about performance in those genres would definitely be helpful, if you wouldn't mind.

If you are in Europe, Thomann often offers b-stock units.
It is very good on rock and hard rock because as said it has very good but not over rates bass extension and has very smooth treble.
I saw Joe satriani yesterday night in Toulouse it was jaw dropping, good sound from the theatre but I was happy to have some plugs I could adjust to tune the sound.
I will listen to Joe satriani discography on ndh30 with pleasure next couple of weeks.

 

[bagwell359]

That we can agree on! I was just making the point that the 650 is technically superior to the 600. The tuning remains a matter of taste of course. You don't like the mid/upper bass rise on the 650 (understandable) and I don't like the forward upper mids on the 600. I've just always found it fatiguing. Prefer the 580 Precision for that reason, and IMHO the 650 is just the best of the three.

Yeah the 600 has a bit more output in the 3.3k range, but the 600 is closer to the Harman target from 6k-15k. On SS w/o parametric EQ the 600 has that 3.3k issue. But not the same midbass rise. Choose your poison.

 

[hakunamakaka]

That's very true! I can't remember what you thought of the NDH 30 (IIRC you weren't as impressed as most?), but the thing about the NDH 30 that deserves the hype IMO is the fact that the vast majority of people who have heard it agree that it offers outstanding performance for the price, plus near indestructible build quality. Yes, arguably the HD 800S is 'better' (although I would argue that the soundstage is less natural and 'correct'), but it's twice the price and won't appreciate being sat on or dropped. I'm very careful with my headphones, but accidents happen and I recently pulled my NDH 20s (same construction as the 30s) from a desktop. They hit the wood floor hard - hard enough to crack the plastic parts on the HD 800(S). Not a single sign of damage to the NDH.

For it’s price/performance ratio ndh-30 is strong competitor in todays market. I simply got my hopes a bit too high as I expected to find cheaper alternative to Utopia, but in the end got back at repurchasing Focals flagship. My wallet and brain screams no, but my heart wants HP which I enjoyed most, even if price jump seems irrational. Tried too many HP’s in recent years, but at least I know what I enjoy most

 

[Mike F]

My opinion on the 30 with metal has changed quite a bit since buying it. At first, I was running it on solid state and a neutral tube amp, and not liking it so much for metal. Granted metal has notoriously poor production quality, and the 30 just brought that to the forefront. I kept putting it aside for more forgiving sets like my Atticus and Atrium Closed. Those smooth over the poor sonic quality and emphasize the power/energy, making metal an absolute blast to listen to. Even the 660S2 is a metal monster. But I kept thinking about the 30 while listening to my metal, and spent a weekend just listening to metal and the 30, and my view changed. Yes the 30 lays bare the poor production, but it also has a sense of honesty and energy I find very alluring. I also changed some tubes in my best tube amp, to something a bit warmer overall, and that was the nail in the coffin, i was hooked.

Guitar strings sound really good on the 30. It has a lot of treble presence but not peaky or fatiguing, just present and refined. I was picking up on the separation of the main and bass guitars on tracks that other headphones cannot separate. I often lose the bass guitar in the cacophony of sound, so being able to pick it out is something new and very welcome. I was also noting subtle drumming particulars that never stood out before. And once my ears acclimated to the slightly leaner signature vs the Atticus/Atrium Closed, it was warm enough to not make me yearn for my warmer sets. Despite pulling out subtle things, I could easily step back and listen from a macro level without issue. Some headphones like the HD800 make me listen analytically, obsessing over micro detail and nuances. I cannot step back with them, no matter how hard I try. The detail just pulls me back. It's like auditory ADHD, I keep chasing little details and losing sight of the macro performance. The 30 walks a fine line of giving me similar detail retrieval without becoming overly distracting. That's just me though, this will be a highly subjective issue.

Going into specifics, I spent a good amount of that weekend on thrash legend Exodus, which is one of my all time favorite bands. Souza's harsh, scratchy screaming lyrical style is hit or miss with all my headphones. Too neutral and it's thin and irritating (HD800, DT 700 Pro X), too dark and it loses it's deliberately raw power and presence (Atticus, HD650). The 30 nails his vocals! It's a bit abrasive, but that's how he sounds. I wasn't fatigued at all. His vocals crown the guitar work which is thick and meaty. Exodus has some insane riffs, they dominate the mids with power and speed. Souza's higher pitched voice mixes perfectly with them as his range is more in the upper mids/treble, and they're in the lower to proper mids. Then there's the drumming. I'm not sure who their drummer is, I tend to focus on Holt's guitar and Souza's vocals. But the drummer is fast, belting out double bass blasts with aplomb. They hit low and hard, and the 30 gives them proper impact and power. Some of their albums are on the thin side production-wise, nothing can be done there. But albums like Shovel Headed Killing Machine sounds full and impactful. The drum blasts are intense, you can feel the pressure waves shiatsu chopping your ear drums. I know, great audiophile blabbery huh? I can't explain it any better though. It's a physically intense experience. Mix all that together and you get pure energy, which the 30 conveys without sacrifice.

I also got in a few hours of Metallica, my first love along with Slayer. Puppets sounds insane on the 30. What I love is how the 30 pulls out the bass guitar work buried behind the Lars' drums and Hetfield's vocals. Bass guitar on Metallica albums always seems like an afterthought, but this is the best i've heard it yet. Lars' drum work is tight and impactful, with just enough energy to drive the groove without becoming overbearing. Hamett's solos are forward and aggressive, as they should be. He's a legend, and those older solos were his prime work, IMO. The 30 pulls that energy and intricacy out easily and lays it bare for you to enjoy. The 30 is one of the best Metallica headphones I own. And Justice for All was an experience as well. Those crunchy powerful riffs and ballistic percussion sounds amazing on the 30. The final act of One is just pure power, and the 30 brings it.

All in all I've gone from "too analytical" to "just right" when it comes to metal with the 30. But I have to be honest in that it's not my first choice. Oddly my first choice for metal has become my HD660S2. It's more colored than the 30 but more balanced than my previous metal king, the Atticus. The 30 is right there though. The only reason I have a SLIGHT preference for the S2 is it's added midbass presence. It's more colored, and brings a bit more meat and impact to the mids, where metal can sound thin at times to me. But it's kind of a band by band preference. Iron Maiden is a prime example of sounding a bit thin and hallow/recessed in the mids (my opinion, don't crucify me!!!!). The 30 makes Dickenson's vocals soar, but the guitar riffs lack a bit of bite and power. The S2 neuters the vocals just a bit, but brings out the drums and guitar work a bit more, adding some much needed weight to the playback. But that doesn't mean the 30 makes Maiden sound bad, it still sounds glorious. But having both at hand, I find the S2 does it just a touch better. But some bands sound better on the 30.

Here's my breakdown of metal bands I like on which headphone most (both do them well, just my personal preferences which are slight):

NDH30:
Metallica
Exodus
Amon Amarth
Pantera
Tool
DevilDriver
Buckethead
John 5
Slash
Jungle Rot
Ozzy
Motorhead

HD660S2:
Iron Maiden
Deep Purple
Megadeth
Slayer
Testament
Overkill
Krisiun
Morbid Angel
Goatwhore (great name!!!!)
Sepultura
Kreator
Death
AC/DC
Guns N Roses
Cavalera Conspiracy
Carcass
Carach Angren
Children of Bodom

And I thought you said your ears were bad? Nothing wrong with them if you're that discerning!

 

[erics75]

And I thought you said your ears were bad? Nothing wrong with them if you're that discerning!

CAN YOU PLEASE SPEAK UP?!? I CAN'T HEAR YOU!?!