[FullBright1]

Nothing wrong with being sensitive to high frequency, as stated, I share the same issue & it seems in my experience, more often than not, anyone with good hearing is sensitve to high frequency to a degree though whether this is a good thing or bad thing is hard to quantify, it just is.

I appreciate the clarfication on IEMs, nor would I convince you otherwise, was just curious...
Your choice after all, though I have a feeling if you did like them, you would have many...many more IEMs than headphones, hard to believe but very possible...
Be curious to know which IEM you tried which was terrible as aside from obvious, I can think of a number of reasons why...
Anyway, apologies for that tangent but I do find listening to speakers & Live Music a very good thing too.
In fact, more times than not, I prefer listening to Live when possible, !

The IEM's i tried, ....i don't recall the model, but they were expensive and made by "Shure".

All i can tell you is that i didnt like the way music is presented, using this gear.
its not like reality, and its not like a headphone, and its not like speakers.
its, a different presentation of stereo, and for me, i found it annoying and very odd.

And yes, Live music, .........I like live, as Live is the ultimate "who is a real Artist" test, as anyone can use software, create a loop, then put out a Rap album.
No talent is necessary, to do this, in my view.
Rap music, or Hip Hop annoys me, to hear it, as its all based on an 8 bar repeating loop, that never changes in 3-7 mins, and the singer does not have to have a melody, they just have to use
a rhyme. They dont even need to be able to sing, as its mostly just talking, over this mind deadening loop that is orchestrated with fills to make it seem like there are changes, and a verse, and a chorus.
Not so, and i hate it.
Also, Live singing.......If you are a singer, and you can't sing live, then why are you doing it?
Most of what is on MTV, and VH1, is just the result of a record company that has found a young girl that will make a dirty video. She can't write music. She can't sing without the use of heavy heavy vocal processing to keep her in TUNE, and
she can't really perform, live.
Few exceptions include Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, Ariana Grande.

 

[teqshea]

I very much admire and like these headphones. The build quality is quite nice. The sound is revealing ------ flat ---- excellent as a tool for mixing. When Mixing I use multiple sound systems and a few headphones ---- these are now part of my lineup for mixing ----- excellent.

 

[PaganDL]

The IEM's i tried, ....i don't recall the model, but they were expensive and made by "Shure".

All i can tell you is that i didnt like the way music is presented, using this gear.
its not like reality, and its not like a headphone, and its not like speakers.
its, a different presentation of stereo, and for me, i found it annoying and very odd.

And yes, Live music, .........I like live, as Live is the ultimate "who is a real Artist" test, as anyone can use software, create a loop, then put out a Rap album.
No talent is necessary, to do this, in my view.
Rap music, or Hip Hop annoys me, to hear it, as its all based on an 8 bar repeating loop, that never changes in 3-7 mins, and the singer does not have to have a melody, they just have to use
a rhyme. They dont even need to be able to sing, as its mostly just talking, over this mind deadening loop that is orchestrated with fills to make it seem like there are changes, and a verse, and a chorus.
Not so, and i hate it.
Also, Live singing.......If you are a singer, and you can't sing live, then why are you doing it?
Most of what is on MTV, and VH1, is just the result of a record company that has found a young girl that will make a dirty video. She can't write music. She can't sing without the use of heavy heavy vocal processing to keep her in TUNE, and
she can't really perform, live.
Few exceptions include Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, Ariana Grande.

Hi @FullBright1,

Appreciate the reply as always.

The IEM's i tried, ....i don't recall the model, but they were expensive and made by "Shure".

All i can tell you is that i didnt like the way music is presented, using this gear.
its not like reality, and its not like a headphone, and its not like speakers.
its, a different presentation of stereo, and for me, i found it annoying and very odd.

I understand completely & actually agree with your observations...not a surprise, really...
I have a lower end Shure in my IEM collection & I actually find that better sound wise, go figure, than the more expensive Shure models (I realise some will complain but that's their problem) but that is my humble & subjective opinion.
As stated, there are definitely IEMs now which have a better sound & stereo presentation than anything from Shure, running the gamut in price point but as said not going to convince you nor would I ever do so though I sympathise with your bad experience.

As we both stated, everyone has their own preference & there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I may have mentioned already I like both kinds of head gear as much as I like speakers too & more often than not, usually when at a desk (not a console, by the way), I use both speakers & headphones more than IEMs.
The latter tends to be for on the go but yes, they don't replace headphones or speakers, no matter what anyone might say.

And yes, Live music, .........I like live, as Live is the ultimate "who is a real Artist" test, as anyone can use software, create a loop, then put out a Rap album.
No talent is necessary, to do this, in my view.
Rap music, or Hip Hop annoys me, to hear it, as its all based on an 8 bar repeating loop, that never changes in 3-7 mins, and the singer does not have to have a melody, they just have to use
a rhyme. They dont even need to be able to sing, as its mostly just talking, over this mind deadening loop that is orchestrated with fills to make it seem like there are changes, and a verse, and a chorus.
Not so, and i hate it.

Well said, it takes real talent to perform music Live.
I definitely agree anyone can use a software program, doesn't matter what for.
Much like the design world in the past decade +, essentially most design degrees now require if you can use said program xyz, then you get the paper to say you are a designer in that field.
So never mind about other more useful skills which may be taught but not covered as extensively as only those who learn said software will graduate, etc but not actually do any 'real or proper' design work, like hand drawing, building prototypes by hand, etc.
Also, one may be in trouble if said design company looking to hire uses different software to what trained on.

Agree on Rap & Hip Hop, I stopped listening to that myself from 90s on & rarely listen to that even now.
If I want to listen to Rap, I rather listen to Traditional or Tribal Rap as that usually has more meaning than the Western influenced version where money, cars & women have to be mentioned which the latter is depressing but that's another story...

Also, Live singing.......If you are a singer, and you can't sing live, then why are you doing it?
Most of what is on MTV, and VH1, is just the result of a record company that has found a young girl that will make a dirty video. She can't write music. She can't sing without the use of heavy heavy vocal processing to keep her in TUNE, and
she can't really perform, live.
Few exceptions include Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, Ariana Grande.

Very true, I don't listen to either music channel any more & haven't, for a very, very long time, aside from not watching TV any more, just a lot on there I really don't want to listen to.
It is a sad state in the music industry when more often than not someone will say, 'oh, that person can't sing so use autotune, etc & all the things are required to make said person sound &/or look good.
Exceptions do exist, of course.


Back to headphones, NDH 20, after being used for about 3 weeks pretty much straight, will now go on short rest now...
Hard to put down as their sound is really enjoyable, I really like the even frequency response.

Oh, by the way, have you heard of the Ollo Audio S 4 Series, I noticed this several years ago, nice to know they now go for a reduced price, be interesting to try one day as they are touted as for 'professional monitoring with a flat frequency response'.

Hope you have a great day !

 

[FullBright1]

I very much admire and like these headphones. The build quality is quite nice. The sound is revealing ------ flat ---- excellent as a tool for mixing. When Mixing I use multiple sound systems and a few headphones ---- these are now part of my lineup for mixing ----- excellent.

It will be interesting to see what Neumann releases as a follow-up.
I suspect they will create what they market as a "True reference sound/reference class Audiophile" Open Headphones.
Maybe the sweet spot, price wise for this, would be about $1299.99 <> 1499.99. USD
And then a year later they can release the "closed' version, same price range.
And of course they'll also create both an Audiophile Dac/Amp, and also just the Amp and just the Dac.
Dac/Amp @$1599 USD
Dac @$699.00 USD
Amp @ $999.00 USD

 

[FullBright1]

Hi @FullBright1,

Appreciate the reply as always.





I understand completely & actually agree with your observations...not a surprise, really...
I have a lower end Shure in my IEM collection & I actually find that better sound wise, go figure, than the more expensive Shure models (I realise some will complain but that's their problem) but that is my humble & subjective opinion.
As stated, there are definitely IEMs now which have a better sound & stereo presentation than anything from Shure, running the gamut in price point but as said not going to convince you nor would I ever do so though I sympathise with your bad experience.

As we both stated, everyone has their own preference & there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I may have mentioned already I like both kinds of head gear as much as I like speakers too & more often than not, usually when at a desk (not a console, by the way), I use both speakers & headphones more than IEMs.
The latter tends to be for on the go but yes, they don't replace headphones or speakers, no matter what anyone might say.

Glad you are bonding with the Neumann's.
Not your typical "audiophile" sound, and not everyone can appreciate what they offer.





Well said, it takes real talent to perform music Live.
I definitely agree anyone can use a software program, doesn't matter what for.
Much like the design world in the past decade +, essentially most design degrees now require if you can use said program xyz, then you get the paper to say you are a designer in that field.
So never mind about other more useful skills which may be taught but not covered as extensively as only those who learn said software will graduate, etc but not actually do any 'real or proper' design work, like hand drawing, building prototypes by hand, etc.
Also, one may be in trouble if said design company looking to hire uses different software to what trained on.

Agree on Rap & Hip Hop, I stopped listening to that myself from 90s on & rarely listen to that even now.
If I want to listen to Rap, I rather listen to Traditional or Tribal Rap as that usually has more meaning than the Western influenced version where money, cars & women have to be mentioned which the latter is depressing but that's another story...


Very true, I don't listen to either music channel any more & haven't, for a very, very long time, aside from not watching TV any more, just a lot on there I really don't want to listen to.
It is a sad state in the music industry when more often than not someone will say, 'oh, that person can't sing so use autotune, etc & all the things are required to make said person sound &/or look good.
Exceptions do exist, of course.
Back to headphones, NDH 20, after being used for about 3 weeks pretty much straight, will now go on short rest now...
Hard to put down as their sound is really enjoyable, I really like the even frequency response.

Oh, by the way, have you heard of the Ollo Audio S 4 Series, I noticed this several years ago, nice to know they now go for a reduced price, be interesting to try one day as they are touted as for 'professional monitoring with a flat frequency response'.

Hope you have a great day !

Thanks for all the info.
And no i have not heard of the Ollo Audio S4 Series..... I'll check it out.

And you know.......having a slew of songwriters that write music for all the Artists, we listen to, .....is not really a new thing.
The first album i recall that came out where the Producers wrote all the music, recorded it, and had the Singer come in and learn the tunes, record them, and that was "her "next record, was Janet Jackson's "Control" album.
That was decades ago......so, this practice of just being a face that sings and makes videos, is basically, the way it works, in the Pop music world.
Rap artists tend to write their ...ummm.... well i cant call it music, so, lets call it RAP.....good idea.
Some country artist (mostly male) like to have a hand in the songwriting process, and its probably Keith Urban who has his hands in all of his process, as he likes to really have his music be his own.
Taylor Swift is unique, in that she writes her songs, so, that makes her unique, along with Lady Gaga.
Then you have Beyonce and Alisha Keys, Ariana Granda, and most of what you see on MTV or VH1....... these are just faces with bodies that are a music industry package. Everything is created for them, and they just show up and dance.

Glad you are able to enjoy the Neumann's.
Not a typical "audiophile" type of sound, and definitely not for everyone.

 

[PaganDL]

Thanks for all the info.
And no i have not heard of the Ollo Audio S4 Series..... I'll check it out.

And you know.......having a slew of songwriters that write music for all the Artists, we listen to, .....is not really a new thing.
The first album i recall that came out where the Producers wrote all the music, recorded it, and had the Singer come in and learn the tunes, record them, and that was "her "next record, was Janet Jackson's "Control" album.
That was decades ago......so, this practice of just being a face that sings and makes videos, is basically, the way it works, in the Pop music world.
Rap artists tend to write their ...ummm.... well i cant call it music, so, lets call it RAP.....good idea.
Some country artist (mostly male) like to have a hand in the songwriting process, and its probably Keith Urban who has his hands in all of his process, as he likes to really have his music be his own.
Taylor Swift is unique, in that she writes her songs, so, that makes her unique, along with Lady Gaga.
Then you have Beyonce and Alisha Keys, Ariana Granda, and most of what you see on MTV or VH1....... these are just faces with bodies that are a music industry package. Everything is created for them, and they just show up and dance.

Glad you are able to enjoy the Neumann's.
Not a typical "audiophile" type of sound, and definitely not for everyone.

Hi @FullBright1,

It's good to share relevant info, isn't it?
Be interested to hear your insight on the Ollo S4 Series if & when you get them.

No, agreed, definitely having songwriters write for others is definitely not a new thing, especially in Pop, which I am well aware though as you say, it is nice when singers can write their own work & actually perform it...well.

Well as someone who is definitely not an audio idiot but a humble sound enthusiast with strong interests in Sound Monitoring, I'm definitively glad not to be a sheep.

Keep up the great insight !

Hope you have a great day !

 

[FullBright1]

Hi @FullBright1,

It's good to share relevant info, isn't it?
Be interested to hear your insight on the Ollo S4 Series if & when you get them.

No, agreed, definitely having songwriters write for others is definitely not a new thing, especially in Pop, which I am well aware though as you say, it is nice when singers can write their own work & actually perform it...well.

Well as someone who is definitely not an audio idiot but a humble sound enthusiast with strong interests in Sound Monitoring, I'm definitively glad not to be a sheep.

Keep up the great insight !

Hope you have a great day !

"always demo with well recorded, quality sources".
Your statement is reality for those who dont want to buy a mistake.

And yes, sharing relevant info........ "can any 2 walk together, unless they are agreed" .....is helpful
It is, for me, an interesting online phenom, that i have had the good fortune to have met unique people in this world, online, and we became friends, based on common interests.
Perhaps, it could be considered a fact, that we all start out the same, but, by the time our individual cultures get finished sanding and polishing us into their idea of ........... whatever they think we should become....
And once this happens to each of use, then whatever "self" quality that we originally had before we were conformed into our "culture",....our "self" gets so diminished, that most people, as they age, can't accept or deal with people of other cultures, very well.
And because this is true, this is the bane of integration, as no matter what Globalist's teach and preach....... the reality is....Cultures will always collide. And to solve this, you would have to have a "One World culture", for everyone,
Problem is... we as a global species are a bit too far along in history for this to work... unless they use a Gun to make us all "One".

But here is the good news....when each of us, at the same time, is wearing our Neumanns, then we are all "together"....

 

[SP Wild]

Thanks for all the info.
And no i have not heard of the Ollo Audio S4 Series..... I'll check it out.

And you know.......having a slew of songwriters that write music for all the Artists, we listen to, .....is not really a new thing.
The first album i recall that came out where the Producers wrote all the music, recorded it, and had the Singer come in and learn the tunes, record them, and that was "her "next record, was Janet Jackson's "Control" album.
That was decades ago......so, this practice of just being a face that sings and makes videos, is basically, the way it works, in the Pop music world.
Rap artists tend to write their ...ummm.... well i cant call it music, so, lets call it RAP.....good idea.
Some country artist (mostly male) like to have a hand in the songwriting process, and its probably Keith Urban who has his hands in all of his process, as he likes to really have his music be his own.
Taylor Swift is unique, in that she writes her songs, so, that makes her unique, along with Lady Gaga.
Then you have Beyonce and Alisha Keys, Ariana Granda, and most of what you see on MTV or VH1....... these are just faces with bodies that are a music industry package. Everything is created for them, and they just show up and dance.

Glad you are able to enjoy the Neumann's.
Not a typical "audiophile" type of sound, and definitely not for everyone.

Poetry. Poetry with a rhythm. You move your hips to the rhythm. Because those hips don't lie. Especially in bed!

 

[PaganDL]

Hi @FullBright1,

"always demo with well recorded, quality sources".
Your statement is reality for those who dont want to buy a mistake.

Agreed, though knowing what we know & given human nature & perception bias, a mistake will happen anyway by someone's discontent or inflated ego...

And yes, sharing relevant info........ "can any 2 walk together, unless they are agreed" .....is helpful
It is, for me, an interesting online phenom, that i have had the good fortune to have met unique people in this world, online, and we became friends, based on common interests.

I concur, good lady, as my experience is similar regarding common interests & meeting people online...

Perhaps, it could be considered a fact, that we all start out the same, but, by the time our individual cultures get finished sanding and polishing us into their idea of ........... whatever they think we should become....
And once this happens to each of use, then whatever "self" quality that we originally had before we were conformed into our "culture",....our "self" gets so diminished, that most people, as they age, can't accept or deal with people of other cultures, very well.
And because this is true, this is the bane of integration, as no matter what Globalist's teach and preach....... the reality is....Cultures will always collide. And to solve this, you would have to have a "One World culture", for everyone,
Problem is... we as a global species are a bit too far along in history for this to work... unless they use a Gun to make us all "One".

As said, Perception, mind state & culture are concepts we all, as humans, have []'issues'[/I] with one way or another, whether that is a good or bad thing all depends on the individual as well as people, sadly this is unlikely to change though the question is whether it should for that same good or ill...
Whether it is a gun or other weapon, it's hard to say whether that really makes everyone 'One' though if it really helps peace in the world, it may not be a good or bad thing either, it just is.

But here is the good news....when each of us, at the same time, is wearing our Neumanns, then we are all "together"....

Solidarity for gear is always a good thing !

Hope you have a great day !

 

[FullBright1]

Hi @FullBright1,


Agreed, though knowing what we know & given human nature & perception bias, a mistake will happen anyway by someone's discontent or inflated ego...

I concur, good lady, as my experience is similar regarding common interests & meeting people online...

As said, Perception, mind state & culture are concepts we all, as humans, have []'issues'[/I] with one way or another, whether that is a good or bad thing all depends on the individual as well as people, sadly this is unlikely to change though the question is whether it should for that same good or ill...
Whether it is a gun or other weapon, it's hard to say whether that really makes everyone 'One' though if it really helps peace in the world, it may not be a good or bad thing either, it just is.


Solidarity for gear is always a good thing !

Hope you have a great day !

Thank you for your response.
Im sorry that you didn't get to read my actual (full) response as it was much longer, and was quite humorous.
Unfortunately a member whined to the Mods about it, and it was "edited for content".

Ive also asked, for the second time, (Brian) "Axel Cloris" a normally agreeable mod, to allow my PM box to become functional, as its been locked for nearly a year.
He ignored me the first time.... lets see if he ignores me again.
Im not going to ask him again, of course, as 2x is enough i think.

Also, it seems that the Neumanns are making quite a few people happy, around here.

 

[PaganDL]

Thank you for your response.
Im sorry that you didn't get to read my actual (full) response as it was much longer, and was quite humorous.
Unfortunately a member whined to the Mods about it, and it was "edited for content".

Ive also asked, for the second time, (Brian) "Axel Cloris" a normally agreeable mod, to allow my PM box to become functional, as its been locked for nearly a year.
He ignored me the first time.... lets see if he ignores me again.
Im not going to ask him again, of course, as 2x is enough i think.

Also, it seems that the Neumanns are making quite a few people happy, around here.

Hi @FullBright1,

Don't worry, I figured there was more but as my time on headfi is inconsistent, especially in the last week, sometimes I see actual responses in full, sometimes I don't, so not surprised someone whined which seems to be the norm more & more these days but that's another discussion to be had at a later date...
I think various members on headfi, especially the more helpful ones, have been 'edited for content' one time or another for various reasons as people will get offended or up in arms about anything these days, particularly if helpful information is being imparted, albeit maybe through less restraint as said helpful person gets aggravated potential helpee doesn't really want to be helped but has an opinion & the internet to express said opinion...which is sad & depressing but that's also a whole other story...

Anyway, yes, I know of Brian as I've had discussions with him before about various things & he is agreeable though as a Mod, he has to abide by the 'dreaded TOS' which is not necessarily a bad thing either.
So subjectively & personally, as I can't & don't speak for anyone else, see what happens after a year then ask again but yes, sadly for now, two times is more than enough so hang in there.

I kind of figured the Neumanns are making others happy besides the two of us as we both said a few times already.
There are people who do enjoy the sound of good headphones, any headphones, for that matter, as is & don't compare for the sake of or just because...
Might be reaching but at least it is a positive reflection on the human condition where one doesn't shove a certain perspective over another's just because...

So just keep being you with awesome insights with worthwhile things to say, listen to & will chat to you soon.
Maybe one day, one can always hope PM

Hope you have a great day !

 

[Roderick]

Oh, by the way, have you heard of the Ollo Audio S 4 Series, I noticed this several years ago, nice to know they now go for a reduced price, be interesting to try one day as they are touted as for 'professional monitoring with a flat frequency response'.

Ollo's don't have a flat frequency response. I'ts quite close to audioquest nighthawk. Ollo's are not quite as dark and have more even treble. They have no drastic peaks or dips so I'm not surprised many music professionals use them. Very natural sounding headphone but flat it is not.

 

[PaganDL]

Ollo's don't have a flat frequency response. I'ts quite close to audioquest nighthawk. Ollo's are not quite as dark and have more even treble. They have no drastic peaks or dips so I'm not surprised many music professionals use them. Very natural sounding headphone but flat it is not.

Thanks @Roderick,

Good to know your opinion.

Though what I meant by flat frequency response is by how music professionals rate FFR, not in hif fi audio terms, as when music professionals rate FFR, they mean no emphasis in any particular area in the frequency range as you also described.
That is Pro FFR, @FullBright1 can confirm this as she is the real music pro, I am only a semi pro in Sound Monitoring.

This is among the many reasons I am looking forward to trying it one day but considering how long I have been putting the S4R off, I can certainly wait even longer as there is no rush for me either.

Not really a fan of Nighthawks though they are decent enough...

Hope you have a great day !

 

[Roderick]

@PaganDL which headphone you you consider to have FFR by professional standards? Maybe I have measured those headphones and could provide comparison with S4.

 

[PaganDL]

@PaganDL which headphone you you consider to have FFR by professional standards? Maybe I have measured those headphones and could provide comparison with S4.

Hi @Roderick,

The thing is, like @FullBright1, I don't necessarily directly compare headphones or any head gear for that matter, especially where measurements are concerned & go by what I hear as the sound itself is paramount.
Not the former which I usually take with large grains of salt.
So providing comparative measurements doesn't really tell me or anyone else anything anyway as this doesn't 'show' the whole capabilities on what a particular head gear can do in the real world.
Jude himself has said measurements mean squat as there are some outstanding head gear which sound great but measure terribly & vice versa.
This also doesn't include everyone has different hearing, headshape & size, ear shape & size, etc.

As a general rule, Professional FFR is highly subjective & personal, depending on the engineer(s) involved, as well as what gear it relates to, not to mention one's own personal conditions, eg environment, room, etc.
In line with this, Darko just interviewed Andrew Jones a few weeks ago on the realities of speaker design, which can also be translated to head gear using the same principles.

So basically, in closing, as potentially helpful as any comparisons might be, it still won't tell me anything unless I have a S4R in hand & take it on its own.
But I still appreciate the attempt to help.

Hope you have a great day !