[Pianist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvw2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I like the way you think Lunatique! You think like me. You will find most people here do not think the same though. The head fi world is far different from home or car fi. Many don't EQ nor look for a (ear) flat EQ. It really only does take a day or two to judge a piece of hardware. It either works the way you want or doesn't. Sure, there's burn in, but it doesn't influence the end result that much, and I think it's well understood what aspects it affects. The aspect that hardware A sounds great for Country but crappy for Rock and why this is isn't known to most people. I know you're aware of this just as much as I that when the sound device is correct, ALL genres sound good. There is no bias. When bias exists, it's because the frequency response is crap. No one gets this. I'll make a suggestion to you. Look into buying a pair of Yuin earphones, PK1 if amped, PK2 if unamped. My brother has a pair of PK2s. It's the only earphone I've listened to where it didn't need any EQing what-so-ever (well within around 1dB). You're stuck with earbuds though. If you specifically want an IEM, I'm not sure. I have a pair of Etymotic ER4S IEMs heading my way. My understanding is that they're essentially the best (response correct) IEM on the market, at least that's what I'm hoping. They are supposed to be 91% within the accuracy of the original source, measured at 25 different frequency points. I'll let you know how they do once I get them. For an IEM, this might be your best bet. As of now, I say just buy a set of Yuin PK2 buds. They're decently affordable and do quite well. My only gripe is they are a little bit in-your-face. They're (relatively) dirt cheap, so give them a try.

Yuin PK2 is a good sounding earbud, but it's not neutral. It has a pleasant coloration in the upper bass and laid back highs. PK1 is definitely more neutral than PK2 as it does not have that upper bass coloration, but it's still a bit too forward sounding and bass heavy compared to a reference studio monitor. The only Yuin that sounds neutral is supposedly the OK1.

 

[Lunatique]

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/w...review-393617/

Apparently Tony's review is very similar to mine--same thing about the hyped bass around 100Hz and rolled off treble at about 12Khz.

mvw2 - I don't think I could ever go back to buds. That's like going back to eating microwave pizza after having had fresh pizza.

BTW, one thing I will say that I like about the W3's is that on a few of my favorite CD's where the mixing/mastering engineers were a bit too heavy-handed with the treble at exactly around 12Khz--well, guess what? Sounds great on the W3 (except the bass is still too hot).

 

[tstarn06]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunatique /img/forum/go_quote.gif http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/w...review-393617/ Apparently Tony's review is very similar to mine--same thing about the hyped bass around 100Hz and rolled off treble at about 12Khz. mvw2 - I don't think I could ever go back to buds. That's like going back to eating microwave pizza after having had fresh pizza. BTW, one thing I will say that I like about the W3's is that on a few of my favorite CD's where the mixing/mastering engineers were a bit too heavy-handed with the treble at exactly around 12Khz--well, guess what? Sounds great on the W3 (except the bass is still too hot).

That shows a little close-mindedness (comparing Yuins to microwave pizza). Not sure how you can dismiss an outstanding sounding ear bud (PK1s, for example) without hearing them. Or do you mean the form factor is comparable to microwave pizza vs. fresh. That might make sense. But if it's about SQ, then you are dead wrong.

 

[Pianist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunatique /img/forum/go_quote.gif http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/w...review-393617/ Apparently Tony's review is very similar to mine--same thing about the hyped bass around 100Hz and rolled off treble at about 12Khz. mvw2 - I don't think I could ever go back to buds. That's like going back to eating microwave pizza after having had fresh pizza. BTW, one thing I will say that I like about the W3's is that on a few of my favorite CD's where the mixing/mastering engineers were a bit too heavy-handed with the treble at exactly around 12Khz--well, guess what? Sounds great on the W3 (except the bass is still too hot).

Yuin earphones sound nothing like cheap earbuds - more like full-sized headphones!

I think you should really try the PK1 or OK1. PK1 sounds somewhat similar to HD555, but a bit more forward and more detailed. OK1 is supposedly even better than PK1, offering even more detail and depth to the soundstage, as well as a more neutral frequency response.

 

[Pianist]

Oh yeah, another Yuin headphone you may want to try is G1. It's not an earbud, but a clip-on. It's very lightweight and comfortable and supposedly offers SQ that is similar to Yuin PK1, but with a more enveloping sound, like that of a full-sized headphone.

BTW: I used to own Yuin PK1, even though I forgot to state it in my signature. I really loved it, but lost it.

 

[mvw2]

I don't know. The PK2 was neutral to me. Everyone's ears are different though, so... I couldn't EQ more then 1dB either way anywhere on it in any band. The response was dead on. I wouldn't mind something slightly less in your face and not so short on note though. It was a little to crisp and energetic to come across natural/real.

The only "real" phone I've listened to is Denon's C700/C751, but the frequency response isn't (ear) flat and the bass has problems. However, it was the only phone I've listened to that was actually 100% transparent and good spacially. You could actually visualize the room in which the music was being recorded. That's damn tough to pull off.

The PK1 is supposed to be smoother in response but does require an amp. The OK1 is supposed to be more refined then the PK1. I kind of figure I'll eventually own one of the two.

+1 for not shunning the Yuin earbud till you try it. They are well loved with good reason.

I'd lean you towards the Denon too, but there will be some EQing. There's something wrong with the bass, but I can't really say what. That's my only gripe with the Denon, great highs, great midrange, and the low frequencies just lose control and definition. It's weird. I only listened to it unamped though, and am curious if it could possibly be a power issue. Also, it didn't seem to have very high output before distortion. Maybe the driver lacks linear throw. I don't know. It's one I'd at the very least demo. I don't really want to throw you off from them because they perform incredibly well otherwise, articulate, detailed, correct body of note, natural sound, open. I plan to head to my brother's place this weekend. He owns the C700 and PK2. I want to give the Denon a second chance amped and see if it regains control on the bottom end with power. If it does, besides a little EQ need, it is an exceptional IEM.

For the price of the W3, you can pretty much pick up 3 or 4 good $100-$200 and try them out. Bring back/resell what you don't like, keep what you do.

 

[Snah]

I'm actually own Yuin OK1 and found it to be quite neutral compared to westone 3. But still, I found that on Westone 3, I can hear more details, so much wider soundstage, and also a thumping bass( which I like by the way). But I believe that the high on OK1 is better than Westone 3. However, westone 3 can produce better low frequencies compared to Yuin OK1. OK1 is a very good earbud, but I think that its sound signature is, like what many people has said, quite boring if you listen to it again and again. I think Westone 3 makes my music sounds more lively.

By the way, CLieOS thanks for the link! I gain some knowledge from your article! hahaha

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

You should make sure to try all the tips, with deep and shallow insertions, and also the triple flange with 1 mm, or 2 mm or even 3 mm cut off the base of the stalk till it sounds right.

For me they can sound a little like what you heard (but not as bad as you describe) with grey tips pushed in too deep, or with Complys tips not in deep enough. With the triple flange tips they can sound a little artificial in the highs if you don't cut their stalks shorter.

But, with the grey tips and a shallow insertion just deep enough to grab the ear canal and to seal they sound much much better, as do the Westone UM-56 custom molded tips that go in very deep and must be bought separately. For me, with either of those tips and ear canal positions the sound can't be beat. With the modded triple flange the sound is very good but they are not as comfortable. I am also going to try them with Shure black foam tips and Etymotic foam tips later this week.

I think if you mess with the tips and ear position, you will find they work much better.

 

[robm321]

Thanks for the review OP! It is so refreshing to have someone around here with traditional audiophile goals - accuracy and for the system to disappear rather than add its own coloration.

My goals have always been the same. Neutral is only boring if the music that you listen to is boring. Sterile is another matter. If neutral is boring, then the newly released Sennheisser HD800 is really going to suck LOL

By the way, if you ever decide to spend a lot of money on headphones – I have heard them all and settled on the HP-2 and K-1000 – both disappear, are grain less and extremely neutral.

Anyway, I would recommend you trying the Etymotic ER4S. They are the most accurate IEM I’ve heard so far. The UE10s also seem to be very neutral, but I’ve never heard them and they are very expensive… and have no resale value.

Also, you aren’t the only one that has made the claims that you have about the Westone 3s. There have been too many comments from those that have tried or owned them for there not to be issues with this IEM. I don’t always trust the “it does everything perfect” posts. Every headphone or IEM has issues and there seems to be no slam dunk in the IEM world outside of the UE11s – and I’ve even heard negative things about them.

 

[communic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Neutral is only boring if the music that you listen to is boring. Sterile is another matter.

I couldn't agree more with this statement. After years of using iems with some form or another of 'cooking' going on it has been refreshing using Phonak Audeos. I feared they might indeed be sterile but neutral is what best describes them. Music on the go is finally a pleasurable experience.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstarn06 /img/forum/go_quote.gif That shows a little close-mindedness (comparing Yuins to microwave pizza). Not sure how you can dismiss an outstanding sounding ear bud (PK1s, for example) without hearing them. Or do you mean the form factor is comparable to microwave pizza vs. fresh. That might make sense. But if it's about SQ, then you are dead wrong.

It's about the form factor and noise isolation. I only use IEM's when out and about, and never use them in the studio (I have no reason to when I have my monitors and a few full-sized cans). I especially need noise isolation for when I'm on a plane, train, bus...etc.

 

[DavidMahler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunatique /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let me preface this by saying that my taste for sound reproduction devices is very simple--accuracy, neutrality, defined, clear, no hype or dip in any frequency range, as deep a soundstage and expansive stereo imaging to accommodate all recording's original intent, fast transient response, smooth (no graininess), and I believe when a pair of speakers/headphones achieve that, there's no longer any need for words like "musical" or "fun" or "dynamic," nor is there need for descriptions like "great for (insert genre of music) but not as good on other genres)." In short, if a sound reproduction device itself does not color the sound, then the only thing left is the intent of the original recording/mixing/mastering engineers. Sound reproduction devices should not sound "warm" or "clinical" or whatever other adjectives used to describe these products--they should simply be invisible and let the original recordings express the artistic ideas intended. A piece of music should only sound warm if that's what the original mastering engineer wanted, not because a pair of speakers/headphones colored them that way. If a recording is supposed to sound very clean and clinical, the that's how the speakers/headphones should reproduce them. If we expect our TV screens to not have a noticeable color cast (too much blue or red or green), then why do we tolerate sound reproduction devices that leave their fingerprints all over the music they reproduce? Unfortunately, it appears to be easier to reproduce a neutral TV screen than it is a neutral pair of speakes/headphones (I could be wrong about this though). So, with that out of the way, let me share my impression of the Westone 3. I got them in the mail today and have been testing them for a whole day. I purchased them from a reputable dealing online here in China (¶ú»ú£*°²ÈóÉ̳ǣºÆ·ÖÖ×îÆëÈ«µÄ¸ßµµ¶ú»úÉ̳Ç) for roughly $291 USD. I compared the Westone 3 to the following: Klein + Hummel O 300D (3-way professional reference monitors in a fully acoustically treated studio using broadband absorbers--see my website for photos of the studio) Sennheiser HD555 (open back headhpones) I purchased the Westone 3 to replace my destroyed Shure E4C (I was never totally happy with the E4C due to the anemic bass and slightly hyped high's around 12Khz-ish). I essentially had to listen with EQ compensation and that drains the battery faster and I really wanted a pair of IEM's that required no EQ'ing to be totally accurate and flat across the frequencies (as much as possible). The most accurate sound production tool I have in the studio are my Klein + Hummel O 300D's, and I trust them completely, especially after doing shootouts between various professional monitors over the years. I know it's unfair to compare headphones to monitors, or full sized headphones to IEM's, but I have no other quality IEM on hand to test against (the only other IEM in the household is my wife's JVC Marshmellows, and they are definitely not high-end). So, I tested the Westone 3 against the Sennheiser HD555 (which I purchased after doing extensive testing against the HD600 and felt the HD555 was just a tiny bit warmer--meaning the high's are slightly rolled off, and that tiny bit of difference didn't not justify the much more expensive price of the HD600 for me) and the K+H O 300D's. I tested with a wide range of styles--from jazz, classical, electronica, industrial, rock, pop, trip-hop, soundtracks, and so on. I also tried all the different tips available. First of all, the tips either fit or they don't--there's not in-between. If they don't fit you do not get a proper seal (or they fall out easily) and that's the end of the story. If they fit, then they essentially all sound very similar--I do not believe the different tips will significantly change the sound signature of the IEM--that would be a terrible design flaw if that were true. If it fits (meaning getting proper seal), then that's it--nothing more to say. After hours of testing and comparing, this is what I found: 1) The Westone 3 is not neutral or accurate. The high's are significantly rolled off--to the point of sounding like a veil is placed in front of the tweeters. The bass is hyped, to the point of sounding muddy. I was not happy about this because with all the research I've done, the Westone 3's are supposed to be one of the more neutral/accurate sounding IEM's on the market currently. As things stand, I cannot use them without customized EQ settings, and this is enough for me to exchange them for something else (I don't know if the online retailer even allow it). 2) In comparison, my Sennheiser HD555 sounds far more similar to my K+H O 300D's than the Westone 3's. This leads me to believe that the higher end Sennheisers are indeed quite accurate in general (the HD555 is only their mid-level product). 3) I started to troubleshoot Westone 3's frequency curve and I tried to match a custom EQ setting on the Westone 3 to sound like the Sennheiser HD555 and the K+H O 300D's. This is what I ended up with: (I also double checked by reversing this EQ setting on the HD555 and K+H so they sound like the Westone 3's.) As you can see, the high's in the 12Khz~14Khz area had to be bumped up quite a bit, while the low's in the 170Hz range had to be pushed down quite a bit as well to get rid of the muddiness. With this setting, the Westone 3's sound close enough to the HD555 and K+H's that if they sounded that way naturally, I'd be happy with them. So, as things stand, I'm pretty disappointed. After all the hype and reading dozens and dozens of pages of forum discussions and reviews, I still ended up with an unsatisfactory product. Before I go ahead and try to exchange the Westone 3, I'd like to hear from those of you who have both the Westone 3 and a Sennheiser HD500 to 600 series full size headphones. Can you please replicate my EQ settings and see if you also get a very close match between your Westone 3 and your Sennheiser HD 500/600 series (please don't try this if you have some other number series of Sennheiser headphones because they do not sound like the 500/600 series. For example the HD280 Pro sounds nothing like the 500/600 series). I'm asking for this because there's a small part of me that wonders if I had gotten a fake one (it's China afterall). I kind of doubt it since the retailer is fairly reputable and the packaging looks perfectly legit to me. IF there's way to spot fakes, please let me know--just in case. So, with all that I've said, if I were to exchange the Westone 3's, what is a far more accurate IEM? The goal is to get a pair of IEM that require no custom EQ settings to sound neutral and accurate.

I do not feel the Westone 3's are rolled off particularly. I think personally you may be looking for a brighter listening experience than is particularly neutral. That being said, the Westone 3s are not neutral, they are definitely raised in the lows and I feel personally, they are raised in the highs, though they cut off round 17 Khz......it isn't roll off though.

 

[Mecc]

I'm not sure what people mean by the highs being rolled off. I think people are trying to say it's like Senn HD6XX with their smooth highs, so it's rolled off in that sense. I don't really feel that way with the Westone 3. The highs have a sparkle to me. Sorta like grados, but sorta not. I don't think they are smooth like Senns.

The tips affect the amount of bass and treble you get, more importantly the amount of sibilance. So it's very important to find a good tip, IMO.

I agree that the Westone 3 aren't neutral, which is why I EQ them. I think they sound wonderful after EQ. On my Cowon player I use -1, -2, +1, +3, 0. I also use their BBE feature (3). The bass is less prominent and the midrange veil is gone for the most part . Since I don't use the W3 for critical listening, I'm completely happy with them. They are fun IEM and enjoyable to listen to. Just gotta EQ them to get the sound you like.

They also sound horrible out of my DS lite. I was testing it yesterday. The soundstage is all cramped and it sound like I'm listening to 128 bitrate stuff. I'll test it out on the PSP, but I'm expecting more of the same. The ESW10 is much better/more forgiving when used with a crappy source.

Just gotta be weary of the early reviews you read. They usually talk about all the good stuff. Buyer's high, purchase justification, marketing. I know one of the early reviews said they sounded so great (and I think neutral) that they didn't need EQ. All in all, worth the $300/400 in comparison to other IEMs I've tried.

 

[Lunatique]

I just got a reply from Westone. This is their reply:

Quote:

Thank you for your inquiry. The dealer that you purchased the Westone 3's from is an authorized Westone dealer and I am certain that the product you bought from them is a legitimate Westone 3. After reading through your review on Head-fi we have seen that you are on the hunt for a exhalation flat reference IEM. Please keep in mind that our design crew was shooting for a great personal listening IEM when they were working on the Westone 3 and not so much a studio reference headphone. I believe that this may be what you are referring to in your Head-fi review. Given that the natural sound signature the W3 provides is not fIat, I may suggest that you simply return the product to the reseller for a return, if you so wish to. If you have any further questions or concerns please feel free to contact us again. Thank you and have a great day.

Anyway, now all that's left if for me to decide to keep them and EQ them, or get rid of them and get a different IEM that's more neutral sounding. I stand by my review and I know it's correct because of the reference I'm using (Klein + Hummel O 300D's in fully treated studio). For those that say the W3's don't have the high's rolled off and are detailed and sparkly--you may not have heard more accurate sounding headphones/speakers. The recess in the 12Khz~14Khz range is quite significant--enough to sound like a blanket has been placed over the treble. This is most noticeable on tracks with orchestral strings--all the upper harmonics are so recessed that it's hard to enjoy those recordings--especially if you switch back and forth between the W3 and a more accurate headphone/speaker. The difference is stark (and I'm one of those people who hate using hyperbole and never exaggerate because I feel it does the public a disservice).

Anyway, I just wanted to share my own experience to add to the pool of public feedback about the W3's. Just because I don't like them doesn't mean they aren't good--taste in audio equipment is often subjective anyway.

 

[ClieOS]

I can see Westone is still great on their customer service, thumbs up!

To Lunatique, if you get a chance, you should try out Head-Direct RE0. I am not sure how it fares against W3, but it is quite neutral and maybe your cup of tea.