[Graphicism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're a funny man. These items we could measure and show how different they are, and you would openly deny it. Then on top of that, you have the sheer nerve to question the ability of others to hear a difference. Hello Mr. Pot, why is it you call me black?

Well theres no point replying to rest of what you said, you're unable to respond to simply questions like why everyone has different tastes in source, amplifiers and DACs if it is indeed all about the 0s and 1s and not music like the rest of us delusional folk think.

What exactly are you referring to by measuring if not using your ears. You can look at all the specs you want, you can compare graphs until you develop CVS, but at the end of the day wether you like it or not it's about how it sounds to the individual.

You're picking out what you want to hear and dismissing everything else you either don't understand or doesn't fit your argument, listen to what I am saying; a difference in sound is subjective to the lister across the board, this include source, aplifiers, DACs and yes, headphones.

 

[xnor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're picking out what you want to hear and dismissing everything else you either don't understand or doesn't fit your argument ...

lol? self-owned.

In the science forum you'd read a "don't feed the troll" at least by now.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well theres no point replying to rest of what you said, you're unable to respond to simply questions like why everyone has different tastes in source, amplifiers and DACs if it is indeed all about the 0s and 1s and not music like the rest of us delusional folk think.

Thanks for shoving words in my mouth and losing all context in the process.

Quote:

What exactly are you referring to by measuring if not using your ears. You can look at all the specs you want, you can compare graphs until you develop CVS, but at the end of the day wether you like it or not it's about how it sounds to the individual.

Great, then this forum is 100% useless too. Since everyone is 100% different according to you, graphs and opinions should mean nothing whatsoever. So what's the point of even discussing them then? Since it's only about the music you should just go and join a music only forum then. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Quote:

You're picking out what you want to hear and dismissing everything else you either don't understand or doesn't fit your argument, listen to what I am saying; a difference in sound is subjective to the lister across the board, this include source, aplifiers, DACs and yes, headphones.

Great, you're a subjectivitist. Then let me say this:

If you're going off subjectivity you may love distortion, noise, and crosstalk. That's your prerogative, but in terms of accurate reproduction such items need not apply.


Once again . . . after you reach a certain point of objective reproduction performance going beyond it is futile. This means looking for the greatest amount of accuracy, and not was bows to your "tastes".

This can't be any more blunt or clear for you.

 

[Graphicism]

Okay I can see where this is heading, for arguments sake we'll say you're right and the rest of us are wrong.

Now I've noticed those of whom believe this 'it's not about the source it's the headphone' don't list thier age or equipment so my next obvious question is: how old are you, and what equipment do you use?

 

[mrpham]

I have a EMU 0404 USB (amp + DAC), an upgraded Theta DS Pro Prime 2 DAC, a Little Dot MKV, and a PA2V2 as my current sources. I currently own a pair of Denon D5000's, a pair of Shure E500's, and a set of Mackie HR824 reference studio monitors. I've also sold a pair of Sennheiser HD555's and passed on a pair of Audio Technica A900LTD's to a friend of mine.

Having put most of my listening gear through every possible combination of the said sources, not once was I able to discern any significant audible differences to the analog line out of my T61P laptop. This result was consistent across everything I had to listen with. Shocked, I posted here on Head Fi in the hopes of somebody identifying what the problem was, because I was so sure there was something wrong. The dominant response was that I didn't give my gear enough listening time and should have given it several more weeks for my brain to 'adjust'. I have since realized that here on the Head Fi forums too often the slightest change in perceived sound is analogous to a "night and day" difference.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Okay I can see where this is heading, for arguments sake we'll say you're right and the rest of us are wrong.

Who is "us"? I believe for the most part you were the only one chasing your tail.

Quote:

Now I've noticed those of whom believe this 'it's not about the source it's the headphone' don't list thier age or equipment so my next obvious question is: how old are you, and what equipment do you use?

I fail to see how it even matters. If I were to say $5K worth, someone would instinctively say "there's your problem, it takes $10K". Then if I were to say $10K I'd be told I can't judge till $100K. This is my problem with head-fi: your worth is based on your money and age.

If you must know to stop barking, I'm 21 and this is my equipment:

Speaker Rig(s):

Magnepan SMGa x2
NHT Super Zero x5 (packed away)
Dayton HF 12" Sub with 300W Bash amp (packed away)
NAD T163 v2 preamp processor (packed away)
Niles SI-1200 amp
NHT PVC
Cary Audio Xciter DAC (also switched to headphones on occasion)
Shek DAC D1 (packed away)
NAD 5020A (needs new cart and packed away)

Headphone Rig(s):

AKG K601
Stax SR-5 and SRD-7 (refurbishing)
UE Super.Fi 3 (Altec Lansing rebadge)
Rockhopper Mini^3
Victor SU-DH1
Zune 120GB

Odds and ends:
Audio Authority toslink switch
Buttkicker
Auzentech Prelude


I bet some of those items surprised you. I believe a quality source is a necessity, but after a certain point it's superfluous. I would have been fine with a Benchmark DAC1, and probably a few lower priced ones yet. I've been through the "subjectivist" stage too as you can see with the D1.

Any other goose chases or witch hunts you want to attempt?

 

[Graphicism]

You've completely lost me. You have higher end source/amp/DAC than I yet you're the one arguing it doesn't matter. "I would have been fine with a Benchmark DAC1" ~ Isn't that a $1,000 DAC? I too would likely argue there isn't much better after a DAC1, however I thought this whole thing was about a $4 USB DAC and possibly a Fiio E5 for amplification.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Okay I can see where this is heading, for arguments sake we'll say you're right and the rest of us are wrong. Now I've noticed those of whom believe this 'it's not about the source it's the headphone' don't list thier age or equipment so my next obvious question is: how old are you, and what equipment do you use?

I'm 58. My antiquated hearing starts rolling off at about 14k, so I'm hearing plenty that shows up, even in subtle differences between DACs and amps. You do know where, in the audible spectrum, the music lies, I assume? Because very, very little of it is up there where there are hearing differences between the healthy 60-year-old and a 20-year-old. If that's your argument, I'll be happy to come back and shoot it full of holes for you.

I'm listening to Apple lossless files played from a MacBook pro into a pair of AVi ADM 9.1s, active speakers with integrated amps, preamp and a Wolfson WM8741. The integrated DAC/Pre measures nearly identically to a Benchmark DAC/Pre, FWIW. The active crossovers are before amplification (which eliminates a ton of distortions most people don't know they have, and the individual amps are matched to the specific, custom-made drivers - 250 watts for each mid/bass driver, 75 watts for each tweeter, which creates a ton of transient response and control most people have never heard. Active speakers, when done properly, are hard to equal when you're pushing the signal through the morass of a passive crossover. That's why recording studios are full of them.

The system is quite resolving, and the electronics exhibit noise, distortion and jitter well below what is considered by reasonable engineers (ie: those not selling jitter reduction) to be audible.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that all amps and DACs sound identical regardless of design and execution. But if you're trying to say that they exhibit anywhere near the differences that transducers do, that's where we part company.

P

 

[Ham Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrpham /img/forum/go_quote.gif The dominant response was that I didn't give my gear enough listening time and should have given it several more weeks for my brain to 'adjust'. I have since realized that here on the Head Fi forums too often the slightest change in perceived sound is analogous to a "night and day" difference.

Are you now able to identify a difference between the laptop as source and better sources?

Describing sound differences from different sources as a night and day difference is an exaggeration. Most changes and differences in audio are subtle. Some people are able to pick up the subtle differences very quickly, but that doesn't make the differences night and day.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif You've completely lost me. You have higher end source/amp/DAC than I yet you're the one arguing it doesn't matter. "I would have been fine with a Benchmark DAC1" ~ Isn't that a $1,000 DAC? I too would likely argue there isn't much better after a DAC1, however I thought this whole thing was about a $4 USB DAC and possibly a Fiio E5 for amplification.

See what assumptions do?

To some extent the EMU 0404 USB would also match performance, but wouldn't have the slew of inputs some more expensive ones (like mine) do either.

We've been arguing there's no difference, assuming there's no deficiencies. I'm pretty sure the Fiio E5 and a $4 USB DAC has some deficiencies.

 

[Currawong]

I don't know why it is that someone sees that Wolfson made the DAC chip used and assume that the results will be good. My experience is that you don't get dramatic differences with cheap portable amps, except in their ability to drive headphones better (using, say, a 9V battery) than the headphone socket of a laptop or cheap sound card. That in itself should make some difference. Unfortunately this thread was trolled early on by SmellyGas, and you all fell into his trap.

Graphicism: There can be had much better DACs than the Benchmark DAC1.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong Graphicism: There can be had much better DACs than the Benchmark DAC1.

Yeah? Prove it. With measurements.

 

[Graphicism]

My assumptions are based off the OP saying his iBasso D2 Boa was underwhelming and SmellyGas of whom I was debating said the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas The reality is that the source and amp don't make dramatic differences in sound quality. You've fallen for one of the classic "shared delusions" that is propagated and reinforced by people on these audio forums. ... You might even be tempted to upgrade your source/amp, only to find that it sounds....exact the same. Now, in all fairness, I would have expected there to be a subtle improvement going from a sound card to a dedicated amp...but that being said, if you want to dramatically alter your sound, upgrade your headphones.

And now you're saying "I would have been fine with a Benchmark DAC1" which backs up my argument completely, I think we all agree the DAC1 is in another league compared to the iBasso D2 because they don't sound exactly the same which is what I've been saying since the first page.

$4 USB DAC to $1,000 Benchmark DAC1 = A dramatic difference in sound.

And I asked age because of inexperience, not due to the fact you might be going deaf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Unfortunately this thread was trolled early on by SmellyGas, and you all fell into his trap.

Exactly! only to find out those blowing his trumpet have the high end gear he despises.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif My assumptions are based off the OP saying his iBasso D2 Boa was underwhelming and SmellyGas of whom I was debating said the following:

The point was assuming nothing was deficient.

Quote:

And now you're saying "I would have been fine with a Benchmark DAC1" which backs up my argument completely, I think we all agree the DAC1 is in another league compared to the iBasso D2 because they don't sound exactly the same which is what I've been saying since the first page.

Depends how they measure.

Quote:

$4 USB DAC to $1,000 Benchmark DAC1 = A dramatic difference in sound

You fail at reading this thread then, because the argument had shifted to assuming nothing is deficient. Something may be deficient with the D2 Boa, nothing was deficient with his original source, or they're both suffering from issues.

As I said, an EMU 0404 would offer much of the same as the DAC I'm using. It won't have the amount of inputs are construction, but that's not the point.

 

[Covenant]

Just in case the OP is still reading this thread, as someone who has owned an Audigy 2ZS and various Pico's and used both to drive headphones direct, you won't experience a "night and day" difference going from one to the other.

The main areas of improvement I found were in the domains of tone, smoothness and naturalness. The Audigy suffers from some glare and 'digititis' - which I use to describe slightly harsh, grainy, fatiguing presentation - that makes long duration listening difficult. Moving to a good quality dac/amp such as the Pico largely alleviates this, and presents music in a more analog-sounding way.

However, this difference is not dramatic. Anemic bass on the ZS doesn't suddenly become punchy and slamming on the Pico. Dry and distant mids don't suddenly become rich and liquid. There are some improvements in terms of frequency extension and impact/warmth, of course. But not "night and day".

IMO, the only "night and day" upgrade in this hobby is going from stock earbuds to your first serious headphone.