[thoppa]

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Originally Posted by Ntropic /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've tried A/Bing FLAC/320. I can't tell the difference. I can do 192 or below against 320, but even then, the difference is small. Only 128 is particularly worse compared to 320, but only in busy electronica. I do keep FLAC collections for lossless archival purposes, however. Burn in could be an issue. The previous owner didn't use the D2 much, so it's probably only had 60 hours or so on it. On the subject of caps, why use do amps use electrolytic caps? Why not those fancy aluminium caps you see in computer electronics? On an unrelated note, does anybody know of any 3.5mm plugs with barrel long enough to house a female 3.5mm end? I'm trying to make a straight impedance adapter (why, I don't know). On a slightly related note, the Pico, I believe, uses the same WM8740 and PCM2706 in the Boa, and with a different amp section. And other higher ($500 total) quality parts. Why do I have a feeling that the difference will be, again, small?

Try the WAV 1411kbps - it won't take long. You should hear more precision in background treble detail, more dynamics, better stereo definition.

There are many types of caps and I couldn't begin to go into it here. If you want to know then read these pages :

http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_1.pdf

http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_2.pdf

High End Audio - Electrolytic capacitors

The last one is highly subjective so take it with a grain of salt !

I think you'll probably have to accept a short bit of cable for your adapter. I've never seen such plugs.

If your gear is used, you might want to check it isn't defective in some way. Can you listen to a new one in a shop ?

For me, I find it hard to eke out more performance from my hi-fi and most changes I make are more about tonal signature than outright performance. Getting a sound you like that isn't fatiguing is the best thing to aim for IMO. Spending US$500 does seem a little outrageous to me. However, I spent US$200 upgrading my DAC and I think it was money very well spent.

Tom

 

[thoppa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomikPi /img/forum/go_quote.gif What he's saying is that all proper solid-state amplifiers sound the same. That means - flat frequency response, sufficient power to not be distorted (not an issue since most hp's require at most a few dozen mw), high input impedance, low output impedance (at least relative to the hp's). (Essentially) all solid-state sources measure identically. So if the fisher price portable cdp doesn't have any major imperfections it should be identical to your favorite esoteric/emm labs/berkeley/etc. DAC. Sound cards though have an increased likelihood to not work well because they are not shielded from other sources of interference within the computer case.

This could be true were it not for the sound signature of op amps, decoupling capacitors, power supply designs, etc etc etc. Dude, you really need to try more gear.

Tom

 

[Bmac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomikPi /img/forum/go_quote.gif What he's saying is that all proper solid-state amplifiers sound the same. That means - flat frequency response, sufficient power to not be distorted (not an issue since most hp's require at most a few dozen mw), high input impedance, low output impedance (at least relative to the hp's). (Essentially) all solid-state sources measure identically. So if the fisher price portable cdp doesn't have any major imperfections it should be identical to your favorite esoteric/emm labs/berkeley/etc. DAC.

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that all amps and cd players/DAC's that aren't defective will sound exactly the same?

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomikPi /img/forum/go_quote.gif What he's saying is that all proper solid-state amplifiers sound the same. That means - flat frequency response, sufficient power to not be distorted (not an issue since most hp's require at most a few dozen mw), high input impedance, low output impedance (at least relative to the hp's). (Essentially) all solid-state sources measure identically. So if the fisher price portable cdp doesn't have any major imperfections it should be identical to your favorite esoteric/emm labs/berkeley/etc. DAC.

Yep, that's basically what I'm saying. Thanks for saving me the trouble of typing it out.

Unfortunately, this concept is in complete contradiction to the shared and self-propagated beliefs among many "audiophiles," and it's very uncool to not be able to hear the differences that people hear claim exist. You're much better off convincing yourself that the $170 you paid actually made a big difference and being happy. It works for a lot of people. Try this exercise. Look at the awesome construction of your Basso amp. Imagine the bits flowing through the USB line into the sophisticated DAC, and how accurately they are being spit out. Close your eyes, and turn the volume up a little higher than you did before...now "listen" to how much better it sounds...it sounds $170 better....no, it sounds $340 better (because of synergy!!) Be happy.

Otherwise, you might be tempted to spend another $300, or $600, or $1200 on better DAC's and amps, only to find that for the same amount of money, you could have just bought some $1200 headphones and heard a dramatic improvement, rather than almost no difference. Your choice.

 

[Graphicism]

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Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Unfortunately, this concept is in complete contradiction to the shared and self-propagated beliefs among many "audiophiles," and it's very uncool to not be able to hear the differences that people hear claim exist.

If you aren't just trolling and saying this to comfort your own purchase choices I would highly recommend seeing a doctor, it's not normal. If you honestly cannot a hear a difference between CD players, amplifiers or even DAC's there could be something wrong with your ears.

I think this whole Sigmund Freud psychoanalytic BS has got out of control, it starts with old people (check profiles) that can't hear a difference from burn-in because there ears have aged somewhat and don't pickup on the sound like they used too... this is then followed by people that don't want to burn in a headphone for 500 hours for it to sound it's best, and out of shear stubbornness say they also don't believe in it. This exact same pattern it seems is found in recabling, some don't believe because they can't hear a difference while others simply don't think a new piece of wire between the headphone and amplifier will do anything.

Now hardware, this ones new to me... I haven't until now heard of people claiming the very same mind games to say all amplifiers and DAC's sound the same, this is just nonsensical thinking which likely has to do with one of three things. One; they haven't heard much Amps/DACs and are just saying theres no different to contemplate themselves, which is fine, however I suggest they keep it to themselves. Second; there headphones don't improve with better amplification or DACs because it simply isn't good enough and doesn't benefit from said upgrades. Third; they have poor hearing, funnily enough everyone thinks they have good or even above average hearing until they get it checked. Yeah there is a huge tonal difference from child to senior citizen but no one notices until they are close to being deaf, this isn't to say it doesn't happen and it certainly is not just in the mind.

 

[SmellyGas]

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you aren't just trolling and saying this to comfort your own purchase choices I would highly recommend seeing a doctor, it's not normal. If you honestly cannot a hear a difference between CD players, amplifiers or even DAC's there could be something wrong with your ears.

Perhaps all of the listeners in this classic Stereo Review article are "not normal" and "need to see a doctor" as well, because none of them could reliably hear differences in amps, DAC's, and cables either.
http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/To%20Tweak%20or%20Not.pdf

Quote:

I think this whole Sigmund Freud psychoanalytic BS has got out of control, it starts with old people (check profiles) that can't hear a difference from burn-in because there ears have aged somewhat and don't pickup on the sound like they used too...

Actually, I can hear up to 17khz. I verified with test tones.

Quote:

this is then followed by people that don't want to burn in a headphone for 500 hours for it to sound it's best, and out of shear stubbornness say they also don't believe in it. This exact same pattern it seems is found in recabling, some don't believe because they can't hear a difference while others simply don't think a new piece of wire between the headphone and amplifier will do anything.

Did it ever occur to you that people don't hear a difference BECAUSE there *IS* no difference??????

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I haven't until now heard of people claiming the very same mind games to say all amplifiers and DAC's sound the same, this is just nonsensical thinking which likely has to do with one of three things.

You haven't? Better read that article in Stereo Review I linked above. When you're done, I have more published in other magazines. I don't make this stuff up.

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Second; there headphones don't improve with better amplification or DACs because it simply isn't good enough and doesn't benefit from said upgrades.

...*OR* amplifiers don't make large differences in sound quality.

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Third; they have poor hearing, funnily enough everyone thinks they have good or even above average hearing until they get it checked. Yeah there is a huge tonal difference from child to senior citizen but no one notices until they are close to being deaf, this isn't to say it doesn't happen and it certainly is not just in the mind.

The problem with this reasoning is that just about everyone can hear differences between headphones, which means they ARE capable of detecting audible differences when they are present....the problem is, if changing out an amp does NOT make any difference....

 

[logwed]

How did my amp blow me away when I first heard it if there is no difference? It's a ridiculous fallacy for someone to claim that there is no audible difference between amps of different tiers.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Perhaps all of the listeners in this classic Stereo Review article are "not normal" and "need to see a doctor" as well, because none of them could reliably hear differences in amps, DAC's, and cables either. http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/To%20Tweak%20or%20Not.pdf

It would be my somewhat educated guess that these people who accepted $20 for this lengthy test would not be able to immediately hear exactly how good a piece of equipment was. It takes years of educating your ear to hear the fine differences in audio systems.

I think you're defensive and frustrated, and, rather than admitting that something might exist that you're missing, you dismiss the fact that anything exists at all. You're the type of person who doesn't appreciate art nor it's value simply because you are unable to feel it.

I'm guessing that magazine isn't around any more?

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Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, I can hear up to 17khz. I verified with test tones.

Oh yeah yeah... the tone-tests on that web site, I can hear them all when I unplug my amp and plug my cheap headphone into my on board soundcard.

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Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Did it ever occur to you that people don't hear a difference BECAUSE there *IS* no difference??????

Did it ever occur to you that nine times out of ten people do hear a difference, where does that fit in your ideology?

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif It would be my somewhat educated guess that these people who accepted $20 for this lengthy test would not be able to immediately hear exactly how good a piece of equipment was. It takes years of educating your ear to hear the fine differences in audio systems.

If you had bothered to READ the article, you would have learned that most listeners could EASILY hear differences when they knew which piece of equipment they were listening to (kind of like you and a lot of people here). However, when they were blinded and asked to tell the equipment apart, they COULD NOT do so reliably!

Furthermore, if you say that "it takes years of educating your ear to hear the fine difference in audio systems," then you are basically saying what I'm saying - that differences in amps, DACs, etc. are NOT great. Why on earth would I want to spend years to educate my ear to hear the differences in DAC's and amps that may or may not exist, when I can EASILY spend another $300 on better headphones and hear the differences (which definitely do exist) right away???

Quote:

I think you're defensive and frustrated, and, rather than admitting that something might exist that you're missing, you dismiss the fact that anything exists at all.

No, I think you are clearly the one who is defensive and frustrated. Many moons ago, I was like you. I was adamant that there were differences in amps and cables and equipment...it was only after a friend subjected me to a blind listening test that I realized that large differences do not exist. And the published studies support me, not you.

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You're the type of person who doesn't appreciate art nor it's value simply because you are unable to feel it.

Once again, all of those listeners in Noussaine's experiment must also not appreciate art or its value because they too were not able to reliably hear differences in equipment once blinded.

Quote:

I'm guessing that magazine isn't around any more?

Do you honestly claim to have vast experience in audio, yet you have never heard of Stereo Review?

Oh yeah yeah... the tone-tests on that web site, I can hear them all when I unplug my amp and plug my cheap headphone into my on board soundcard.[/quote]

Great, so you do not have high frequency hearing loss either. I don't see your point.

Quote:

Did it ever occur to you that nine times out of ten people do hear a difference, where does that fit in your ideology?

I would say ten times out of ten, people will hear a difference in equipment when they know which piece of equipment they are listening to, just like the listeners in the Stereo Review article were able to hear differences when they knew the identity of the eqiupment they were listening to. The problem occurs when they don't.

 

[Ntropic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by logwed /img/forum/go_quote.gif How did my amp blow me away when I first heard it if there is no difference? It's a ridiculous fallacy for someone to claim that there is no audible difference between amps of different tiers.

It could be that your equipment benefited from extra power.

Also, it looks like I've got this habit of making threads that turn into **** storms, or just get ignored entirely. It's cool.

 

[AtomikPi]

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif That I wouldn't agree with, all amps I've heard sound different... if you can't hear a difference I'd look at your other equipment, namely your headphones... unless of course I'm misunderstanding, I still don't really understand this amping is in your head thing going on... I can understand it for burn-in, even for cables, but not for equipment. Now that I know isn't true, all DACs sound different... next you'll be telling me all graphics cards are the same, it's just in our heads!

First of all, I think smellygas is doing a good job arguing his points so I'm probably not going to respond any more to this topic. However, I do have to respond to these allegations.

1) Regarding amplifier differences: yes of course I hear differences. I have heard many, many top tier solid state and tube amplifiers and own a beta 22. Subjectively, my beta 22 sounds better to me than my pico. But I know that those differences most likely aren't real because of simple science and ABX. I have been to multiple head-fi meets including Canjam 09 and have loved listening to high-end equipment and won't pretend I don't hear the same things you do. However, even if I were to be a subjectivist (I by the way am not a complete objectivist but lie closer to objectivist than subjectivist) I would still focus on the transducer since we can all agree that differences between them are both measurable and audible. If I had big bucks to blow on audio, sure I would go ahead and buy fancy electronics.

2) Of course there are measurable differences between dacs. However, those differences are too small to be audible as countless ABX's confirm. The only time a difference arises is when tubes (or anything else) is driven to distortion (very rare for SS DAC's, occasionally crops up in tube cdps/dacs) or if they have a non-flat FR (again extremely rare in modern electronics). A $50 dvd player is capable of delivering a perfect signal that will null with the volume corrected signal from your favorite high-end dac.

Regarding graphics cards: this is a really awful analogy. I happen to be a gamer and pc enthusiast. A higher-end graphics card will deliver higher measurable FPS. That's an easily measurable metric of performance. I can tell that a graphics card that I bought for $50 won't have as high of a frame rate as a top tier card, say a GTX285 or something. However, one could make the argument that once one reaches a performance threshold of the limit of human sight - around 60 fps - further upgrades are pointless. That is, once I get 60+ fps consistently from one card, getting 120 fps from another is pointless since I can't see the difference. It's the same thing with DAC's - being -130 db s/n isn't audibly better than 100 because it's too small for humans to hear.

By the way, my hearing extends to 19-20 khz (I have tested it).

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by logwed /img/forum/go_quote.gif How did my amp blow me away when I first heard it if there is no difference? It's a ridiculous fallacy for someone to claim that there is no audible difference between amps of different tiers.

I'll just post it again in case you missed it the first time.
http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/To%20Tweak%20or%20Not.pdf

 

[CodeToad]

I don't know anything specific about the amp you have but I know my portable mini3 doesn't have the same punch as my old Little Dot MKIII did. I think it's a function of voltage swing.

Also you didn't say how you have the dac hooked up. Are you on XP and if so are you bypassing kmixer?

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you had bothered to READ the article, you would have learned that most listeners could EASILY hear differences when they knew which piece of equipment they were listening to (kind of like you and a lot of people here). However, when they were blinded and asked to tell the equipment apart, they COULD NOT do so reliably!

There are numerous problems with this; for instance how long were they given to listen to equipment, I mean I personally think head-fi meets are pointless for a few reasons; One, you have only a short period to listen to the equipment, not a couple weeks in the comfort of your own home... and two; generally have to listen to the equipment at a louder volume than you are used too because of all chit-chatter going on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Furthermore, if you say that "it takes years of educating your ear to hear the fine difference in audio systems," then you are basically saying what I'm saying - that differences in amps, DACs, etc. are NOT great. Why on earth would I want to spend years to educate my ear to hear the differences in DAC's and amps that may or may not exist, when I can EASILY spend another $300 on better headphones and hear the differences (which definitely do exist) right away???

The same can be said for just about everything, even headphones... going from my $30 JVCs to Denon D2000s or Ultrasone HFI-780 are also minimal, just as minimal as going between different Amps and DACs. The question is are the small differences worth the extra $$$ and to the majority of members of this hobby the answer is yes. The novice listener will take a pair of apple ear buds over say IE8s simply because they don't appreciate the difference in value, this hobby is exactly that, appreciating the difference, however tiny it might seem.

Why would you spend $300 on a 'better headphone' when the difference is minimal, I mean they all create sound at the end of the day so how do you justify that?

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Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, I think you are clearly the one who is defensive and frustrated. Many moons ago, I was like you. I was adamant that there were differences in amps and cables and equipment...it was only after a friend subjected me to a blind listening test that I realized that large differences do not exist. And the published studies support me, not you.

I'm hardly defensive or frustrated, I'm just struggling to understand what you're saying. I mean I have a $30 headphone that I love, that's hardly showing off or reason for my spend more get more thinking. I also have a $150 Amp/DAC (granted I want to upgrade) and can tell you hand on heart the difference compared with plugging ANY of my headphones directly into my soundcard/zune etc is different than plugging into my Amp/DAC... even my novice wife who prefers her Zune IEMs says it has better bass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you honestly claim to have vast experience in audio, yet you have never heard of Stereo Review?

No I don't claim to have vast experience at all, I said I can attest to hearing a difference between everything I have heard thus far... trust me I would have lost interest a long time ago if there were no such benefits. And I don't ever buy magazines because generally they are full of crap as your link proved, my thinking behind the magazine no longer in print was if they published something like that and stood behind it they basically talked themselves out of a job... see what I'm saying?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Great, so you do not have high frequency hearing loss either. I don't see your point.

No, I'm saying the online tests are complete nonsense, I know I don't have better hearing than a dog... I put it down crappy equipment, with my amp I can only hear a few of them, with no amp I can here them all. Get a real test done at a doctors office... this self diagnoses is disastrous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would say ten times out of ten, people will hear a difference in equipment when they know which piece of equipment they are listening to, just like the listeners in the Stereo Review article were able to hear differences when they knew the identity of the eqiupment they were listening to. The problem occurs when they don't.

Well some day you should make a really fancy looking amp, a huge monstrous $6,000 amplifier and bring it to a meet... have people test it, see what they think of it... and then at the end of the day open it up to expose a single wire from input to output... that would be believable, none of this I paid 7 people $20 and this is there alleged findings.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hey, hon? Get me a beer, willya?

P