[ZzZzZzZ]

Just saw a new DDC on https://aoshida-audio.com/products/musician-phoenix

MUSICIAN PHOENIX High Performance Digital Interface

♦ Proprietary FPGA DSP Processing Architecture
♦ FIFO Buffer and Reclock with Internal Crystal
♦ Precision Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillator OCXO
♦ O-type single crystal copper transformer
♦ Optical Isolated All Digital Input Interfaces
♦ Proprietary USB Audio Solution via STM32F446 Advanced AMR Based MCU
♦ Licensed Thesycon USB Driver For Windows Platform
♦ Driverless On Mac & Linux
♦ Dual AES/EBU Output Supported
♦ External Clocks Input Supported

PCM
24bits / 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192KHz On All Input & Output
Up to 768KHz On USB Input & Up to 384KHz on I2S Output
Digital Input
Coaxial, optical fiber, AES/EBU, USB
External Clock Input
45.1548MHz，49.152Mhz
Digital Output
AES/EBU x2 output, I2S HDMI LVDS/I2S RJ45 lvcmos, optical fiber, coaxial

Please note that the RJ45/HDMI ports of PHOENIX are not typical network/multimedia RJ45/HDMI ports. They are purpose-built I2S ports.
Please do not connect it to the typical multimedia HDMl port (i.e. Bluray player/TV etc)/ Ethernet network.

 

[Ludique]

A natural addition to their portfolio. Priced to compete with Denafrips Gaia.

 

[AudioMoksha]

Somehow they seem to be building everything to compete with Denafrips. Just noticed the Red speakers in their portfolio, I have no clue what is going on.

 

[obzilla]

Somehow they seem to be building everything to compete with Denafrips. Just noticed the Red speakers in their portfolio, I have no clue what is going on.

It’s the same factory if not outright the exact same company

 

[gimmeheadroom]

It’s the same factory if not outright the exact same company

Marketing people figured out that if you flood the market with dozens of identical products under different brands, the odds of somebody buying it from you instead of one of their competitors increase in your favor. But the secret is out. If you go to a big electronics store and find 100 widescreen TVs, there are probably 5-10 different models repeated 10-20 times with identical specs but slightly different enclosures. But there is a cost to this (for us I mean) since now the parts are specific to some model which is otherwise identical electronically to some other model.

 

[obzilla]

i mean….

 

[gimmeheadroom]

I know, this is old news. The first Musician piece was a copy of a Denafrips DAC.

 

[marcmccalmont]

Has anyone compared the Phoenix to a Gustard U18?

 

[Haidar]

How does the Phoenix differ from the Ladder Handel digital interface?
https://www.amazon.com/LADDER-High-performance-Digital-Interface-Interfaces/dp/B0BLSHBVCD/

 

[project86]

My theory is that "Ladder" is either:

A) yet another spinoff brand using the same design team and factory as Denafrips and Musician Audio, or...

B) a complete copycat offering "clone" products


I'm thinking option A makes little sense but who knows. Supposedly the factory and teams expanded so they did Musician Audio to keep busy and help justify the larger staff/facility. But adding a 3rd option? I'm not sure about that. Maybe they just do batches of "Ladder" products in between runs of the other two, or when those orders are all filled and it would otherwise be down time? I just don't know.

Option B is a very real possibility. It happens all the time with this sort of thing. I would have to see the guts of the Ladder gear to maybe see any differences in parts or design. - but they don't seem to show interior pics.

Ladder also has a preamp that looks identical to the Musician Monoceros and Denafrips Hestia. I notice the Ladder enclosures do look a little thinner/more basic, at least from the rear view.

I notice the marketing pics are very similar between Ladder and Musician. That could be a result of A or B though.

 

[m-i-c-k-e-y]

I know, this is old news. The first Musician piece was a copy of a Denafrips DAC.

Ans as posted by the previous poster. My speculation is Musician is to Audiobyte, as Denafrips to Rockna?

I saw a post in YT too claiming that the chief designer of Denafrips didn't want to be tied w/ their design principles and thus Musician. Don't know if it's true or not.

Just thoughts. Don't want to derail the thread

But one thing is certain though. Quality, high performing products.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

My theory is that "Ladder" is either:

A) yet another spinoff brand using the same design team and factory as Denafrips and Musician Audio, or...

B) a complete copycat offering "clone" products


I'm thinking option A makes little sense but who knows. Supposedly the factory and teams expanded so they did Musician Audio to keep busy and help justify the larger staff/facility. But adding a 3rd option? I'm not sure about that. Maybe they just do batches of "Ladder" products in between runs of the other two, or when those orders are all filled and it would otherwise be down time? I just don't know.

Option B is a very real possibility. It happens all the time with this sort of thing. I would have to see the guts of the Ladder gear to maybe see any differences in parts or design. - but they don't seem to show interior pics.

Ladder also has a preamp that looks identical to the Musician Monoceros and Denafrips Hestia. I notice the Ladder enclosures do look a little thinner/more basic, at least from the rear view.

I notice the marketing pics are very similar between Ladder and Musician. That could be a result of A or B though.

I don't have any info on this. But I did make an e-friend with a Chinese-American guy whose job it was to set up manufacturing contracts with Chinese companies to make stuff for American companies and he told me most everything is made on the same assembly lines and just rebranded (or not) on demand. The factories don't want idle time on the lines so in many cases if there is no paying customer for the name brand stuff during this or that shift or time of the month/year they just keep making the same things and sell them unbranded on whatever ecommerce site, or to another company who wants that product to sell under its own name.

Somewhat relative to this discussion: I had some correspondence with a company with a presence on headfi that makes something, and I asked for a minor customization. I was told it was impossible. And this is for something that is small-batch and right now is branded only by one company. I understood from the helpless response that the guy I was talking to (owner/main rep) was not making the boxes in-house. So, this seems to be the model, just like many "American" companies don't actually make anything, the same is true of Chinese and other eastern companies and probably the whole world lately.

 

[kopczas]

My theory is that "Ladder" is either:

A) yet another spinoff brand using the same design team and factory as Denafrips and Musician Audio, or...

B) a complete copycat offering "clone" products

I`m investigating it as I`m choosing between Musician Pisces or Ladder Boya. Both mysterious.

IMO scenario A is very much possible. Let`s say that Denafrips is owned by someone, details are not important but this owner X made research for off Denafrips products that would cost a lot. That`s why Denafrips costs what it costs, cheapest Ares is not as cheap to be for everyone. From this point it gets more expensive so market for potential buyer shrinks.
So owner X figured that kipping 90% of design the same, another brand can be created offering better performance to price ratio. Then third company comes out, even cheaper then second. Economy option comes from simpler and lighter enclosures but otherwise these are the same products.
Strangest for me is that Ladder don't even has webpage, but I can think of one simple explanation for this too: nowadays portfolio needs inside pics to show how impressive design is. If one could compare insides of both would choose cheaper probably, so Musician sells would drop.
This way owner X sells in three-way.

 

[TheRealDz]

I`m investigating it as I`m choosing between Musician Pisces or Ladder Boya. Both mysterious.

IMO scenario A is very much possible. Let`s say that Denafrips is owned by someone, details are not important but this owner X made research for off Denafrips products that would cost a lot. That`s why Denafrips costs what it costs, cheapest Ares is not as cheap to be for everyone. From this point it gets more expensive so market for potential buyer shrinks.
So owner X figured that kipping 90% of design the same, another brand can be created offering better performance to price ratio. Then third company comes out, even cheaper then second. Economy option comes from simpler and lighter enclosures but otherwise these are the same products.
Strangest for me is that Ladder don't even has webpage, but I can think of one simple explanation for this too: nowadays portfolio needs inside pics to show how impressive design is. If one could compare insides of both would choose cheaper probably, so Musician sells would drop.
This way owner X sells in three-way.

I am in the same predicament; Pisces, Boya, or even Gustard U18. I am leaning towards the Pisces, but there's so little info on it...

 

[project86]

As far as I can see, the DDC products from Denafrips and Musician are identical inside, or nearly so. Much much less variation between them compared to the DACs. So feel free to pick based on looks or whatever, knowing they should be very similar in performance.