[DMSB]

Full disclosure: I am a employee of MSB

I just wanted to comment about the ability of various current MSB DACs to drive headphones directly.

Analog DAC, Platinum IV, Platinum V, Select DAC 1
All these DACs have a low enough impedance and sufficient power to drive many headphones but I do not recommend it. The reason is that a highly reactive load or a load with too low of an impedance at any frequency may cause the output buffers to overheat. Even if the load does not dammage the DAC a low impedance like a headphone will cause increased distortion and will probably not sound as good as an amplifier specifically designed for such loads.

Select DAC II:
There is no output buffer, amplifier or active circuitry. Any type of load may be driven from 0 Ohms to Infinity. Highly reactive loads are perfectly acceptable. The only thing watch out for is that the load does not feed any external power back into the inputs. Different loads do not cause any increase in distortion and do not change the power disipated by the DAC. All volume levels provide exactly the same impedance. The analog input has a high power buffer amplifier that is able to drive the same loads as the DAC.

As far as if the Select DAC II will work well driving any particular headphones here are the key factors.
1. The 75 Ohm output impedance must not cause too much coloration. This means that the headphone should either have a flat impedance, a high impedance, or an impedance that equalizes the audio in the desired way when driven by 75 Ohms. I have experimented with simple passive zobels to flaten the impedance of a few headphones that had wild impedances with good results.
2. The headphone must be efficient enough to reach your desired output volume with the power avalable. If your listening volume is 100 or less with normal level recordings and you do not need to go over 106 with quiet recordings then you have sufficient efficiency.
3.The headphones must be connected in fully balanced mode. Using 1/2 of the balanced output to drive a single ended low impedance load will result in significant crosstalk between the channels and may trigger the DAC to display an Error. It will not harm the DAC however.

I think it is cool to drive headphones directly with the Select DAC II outputs. It is the only electrical audio signal chain I know of that has zero active circuitry, zero amplification.

I hope this information helps

 

[isquirrel]

Full disclosure: I am a employee of MSB

I just wanted to comment about the ability of various current MSB DACs to drive headphones directly.

Analog DAC, Platinum IV, Platinum V, Select DAC 1
All these DACs have a low enough impedance and sufficient power to drive many headphones but I do not recommend it. The reason is that a highly reactive load or a load with too low of an impedance at any frequency may cause the output buffers to overheat. Even if the load does not dammage the DAC a low impedance like a headphone will cause increased distortion and will probably not sound as good as an amplifier specifically designed for such loads.

Select DAC II:
There is no output buffer, amplifier or active circuitry. Any type of load may be driven from 0 Ohms to Infinity. Highly reactive loads are perfectly acceptable. The only thing watch out for is that the load does not feed any external power back into the inputs. Different loads do not cause any increase in distortion and do not change the power disipated by the DAC. All volume levels provide exactly the same impedance. The analog input has a high power buffer amplifier that is able to drive the same loads as the DAC.

As far as if the Select DAC II will work well driving any particular headphones here are the key factors.
1. The 75 Ohm output impedance must not cause too much coloration. This means that the headphone should either have a flat impedance, a high impedance, or an impedance that equalizes the audio in the desired way when driven by 75 Ohms. I have experimented with simple passive zobels to flaten the impedance of a few headphones that had wild impedances with good results.
2. The headphone must be efficient enough to reach your desired output volume with the power avalable. If your listening volume is 100 or less with normal level recordings and you do not need to go over 106 with quiet recordings then you have sufficient efficiency.
3.The headphones must be connected in fully balanced mode. Using 1/2 of the balanced output to drive a single ended low impedance load will result in significant crosstalk between the channels and may trigger the DAC to display an Error. It will not harm the DAC however.

I hope this information helps

Great information thank you, the sound direct allows me to hear everything that the music is doing free of any distortion from the amp, volume listening levels for normal listening are at around 87 with Audeze LCD-4. That headphone has an output impedance of 100 ohms. The DAC drives it easily. The only thing I could wish for would be a balance control.

 

[DMSB]

Hmm, it would be possible to do a digital balance control on the DAC only, not the analog input. If you really really want it send an e-mail to Jonathan. He can discuss the feasibility with me.

 

[isquirrel]

Hmm, it would be possible to do a digital balance control on the DAC only, not the analog input. If you really really want it send an e-mail to Jonathan. He can discuss the feasibility with me.

DAC only is all that is required, especially when using with either Headphones or Active Speakers its a useful tool. I will email Jonathan, thank you!

 

[Beolab]

Just curios Simon on what type of active speakers you are using as you mentioned?

 

[ccschua]

HI DMSB, I wonder if the ethernet I2S (green panel) accepts the external I2S other than MSB?

 

[seeteeyou]

FYI - for those of us who are mere mortals, there's still hope with HDSPe MADI FX from RME
 
http://www.myav.com.tw/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=349951&perpage=1&pagenumber=7403
http://www.stereophile.com/content/msb-technology-platinum-data-cd-iv-transport-amp-diamond-dac-iv-amp-da-converter
 
There's a shootout between fully loaded (over 40-grand according to their config) MSB Diamond DAC IV and MADI FX back in March 2013. Basically the SQ of MADI FX shocked everyone over there since it's as good if not slightly better than that of Diamond DAC IV.
 
Here's another plus of MADI FX and we could take a look at the datasheet below
 
http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/hdspe_madi_fx.php
http://www.rme-audio.de/download/sheets/hdspe_madi_fx_e.pdf
 
The output impedance of its single-ended 6.3" headphone output turned out to be exactly 75Ω as well, you could terminate your favorite headphone with this $170 connector without having to deal with female couplers
 
http://www.atl-newcablestudio.com/PN-6308RH03.html
http://goods.ruten.com.tw/item/show?21304029648773
 

 

---

 
And then there's an external version called MADIface XT and it's just slightly more expensive than Chord Hugo in US
 
http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/madiface_xt.php
http://www.google.com/shopping/product/307862434751722389
 
The specs listed 150Ω for its XLR outputs, I wonder if that were any good for driving LCD-4 or otherwise
 
http://www.rme-audio.de/download/madiface_xt_e.pdf
 

---

 
It's gotta be mighty interesting if there were a three-way shootout with these guys
 

1. Chord DAVE
2. MSB Select DAC II
3. RME MADIface XT with CAD CAT via Thunderbolt / USB 3.0

 

[isquirrel]

 

---

 
It's gotta be mighty interesting if there were a three-way shootout with these guys
 

1. Chord DAVE
2. MSB Select DAC II
3. RME MADIface XT with CAD CAT via Thunderbolt / USB 3.0

 
Unfortunately given the unforeseen delays, that is not going to happen as planned, the DAVE is two weeks away and the Demo Select II is leaving tomorrow. I have given up hope of seeing mine in the next 30 days. Although I am sure some time in the future there will be an opportunity there would be no sense in posting publicly about it, it would either destroy any relationship with MSB or do the same with Chord. I also don't think the sound of each appeals to the same listener, I have had a few Chord DAC's and they have a different sonic presentation compared to what I am hearing from the Select. That IMHO is a good thing.

 

[Beolab]

Unfortunately given the unforeseen delays, that is not going to happen as planned, the DAVE is two weeks away and the Demo Select II is leaving tomorrow. I have given up hope of seeing mine in the next 30 days. Although I am sure some time in the future there will be an opportunity there would be no sense in posting publicly about it, it would either destroy any relationship with MSB or do the same with Chord. I also don't think the sound of each appeals to the same listener, I have had a few Chord DAC's and they have a different sonic presentation compared to what I am hearing from the Select. That IMHO is a good thing.

That was unfortunately to here;(

I understand your dilemma Simon, but you could just wright how they are presenting the sound in relation to each other as you mentioned , and not make a "winner or looser" review, just wright down your own impressions , so the readers can make their own conclusions, could be one idea.

 

[romaz]

The Select II with single power base and connected to UMT via I2S at CES.  I have never heard a piano sound so real from a recording, one of the hardest things for digital to do well.  As the artist was pounding on the upper octave keys, there was no smearing at all and just the most natural decay.  Harry Connick, Jr.?  I have never heard him sound better.  And Holly Cole, I was never a big fan before and somehow, now I am.  Simply amazing.

 

[ccschua]

I have just started listening to this external discreet (ON semicon)  linear power supply with isolation transformer. without the use of linear reg like LT 1963, LM 337, these regulators perform better throughout the freaquency range. 
 
all transformers are come with individual screen and earthed. The capacitors on closer inspection are really huge as their capacity is 10,000uF each. 
 
The first session has me jaw dropping and goosebumps.this guy is heavy weighing in at 15kg with soft touch switch that occasionally make me felt that its not turned on, but its a different experience. 
 
do PM me if you wants to find out more about this beauty.
 
 

 
 
 
 
 

 

 
I am very surprise with the amount of juice that I can get further from analog. with the stock desktop supply, it is limiting the 30% of highend sound.
 
focus and spatial cues are normally not obvious to but by paying attention. however its so effortless now listening to it. its so much more potential revealed with this power supply upgrade. 

 

[isquirrel]

 
What's the power / drive like at louder volumes on both the LCD4 and Abyss? 
 
I would assume the Abyss needs an amp while the Audeze is comfortable without.

Tried the Abyss, its okay, cannot drive it earth shattering levels but more than what I would normally listen at so plenty loud. Depends on how much headroom you want. I am trying to find an excuse to keep my valve amps so maybe this is it.
 
The queen is listening to the system for a an hour or so today she was heartbroken when I told her her beloved 234's may be going so she wants a chance to have the whole demo experience herself again and at length. I shall report on her findings. Me personally I could live with the Abyss at max level as it was plenty loud enough. 

 

[isquirrel]

 
The Select II with single power base and connected to UMT via I2S at CES.  I have never heard a piano sound so real from a recording, one of the hardest things for digital to do well.  As the artist was pounding on the upper octave keys, there was no smearing at all and just the most natural decay.  Harry Connick, Jr.?  I have never heard him sound better.  And Holly Cole, I was never a big fan before and somehow, now I am.  Simply amazing.

Love the photo thanks Roy, so happy I choose Silver, glad you liked the sound. Thanks for the CES report.

 

[Beolab]

Tried the Abyss, its okay, cannot drive it earth shattering levels but more than what I would normally listen at so plenty loud. Depends on how much headroom you want. I am trying to find an excuse to keep my valve amps so maybe this is it.

The queen is listening to the system for a an hour or so today she was heartbroken when I told her her beloved 234's may be going so she wants a chance to have the whole demo experience herself again and at length. I shall report on her findings. Me personally I could live with the Abyss at max level as it was plenty loud enough. 

But you prefer the LCD-4 overall or ?

How much do you estimate that you are missing out when you go through the 234ś and do you miss anything from the 234ś when you are going DAC direct?

 

[isquirrel]

But you prefer the LCD-4 overall or ?

How much do you estimate that you are missing out when you go through the 234ś and do you miss anything from the 234ś when you are going DAC direct?

Yes I have always been an Audeze fan boy, but I like the Abyss as well. I probably listen 90% LCD-4 and the rest Abyss. How much do you miss by going through any valve amp compared to a DAC that has a 189 dB dynamic range - approx half of everything and it sounds like it. Its not something you can ignore once heard. Roy was driving me crazy over trying it - glad he pushed me, You know I really love valves and have been collecting them for years. I would have to have somewhere between 500 - 750. It would not be easy for me not to play with them anymore, as its very much a part of the hobby, its probably become a hobby in its own right.  
 
I want to get my golden eared women onto it today and give her time to really immerse herself in both, she shares my love for tubes so it will be hard for her too. Please hang on and I will post our mutual findings separately to try and give the best possible feedback. I realise this is not an easy matter for the heart. I want the valves to sound better so far there is just no doubt that I literally noticed sounds on tracks I know really very well that I had never heard before. All this on 16/44. More to come.