MQA Deep Dive - I published tracks on Tidal to test MQA

[Audiophiliac]

No! Firstly, with a normal uncompressed file, it reads into ram, then gets routed and converted into whatever transport protocol you’re using (USB, SPDIF or whatever) through driver software by a noisy processor and then gets output as demanded by that protocol (not necessarily the clock speed of the audio). With FLAC you also have a noisy processor involved, so both compressed and uncompressed files involve a noisy processor, what’s the difference? Secondly, even if there were some difference in the amount of noise transmitted with the bitstream/data packets, what difference do you think that makes to your speaker/HP output? Digital audio is NOT analogue audio. Unlike analogue audio, noise/interference in the digital signal cannot be represented in the digital data and therefore ceases to exist, which was the whole point of why digital audio was invented. Digital audio only has two states, a one or a zero, that’s it there is nothing else, so there cannot be a noisy one or a noisy zero! The only *potential* way for noise to get through would be a particularly badly designed DAC, which allows the noise on the digital input connection to somehow find it’s way to the analogue side of the DAC and the worst example of this I know still does not allow enough noise contamination to be audible at any reasonable playback level.

If there really is noise so loud when using FLAC that you can actually hear it above the noise floor of your recordings (which you apparently can’t hear) then your computer, your DAC or both are very seriously defective!

G

Playing FLAC is the same job as playing uncompressed, but adds the step of working extra to put the uncompressed version into RAM. We are sticking to this part, although later I disagree; Unlike the old analogue only playback sources, where stuff gets lost all the time through imperfect copying, digital is all about trying to avoid adding noise to your playback with your gear, which happens with every part you use. Your source seems to be where the most gets added, and a PC is built from a supercharged CPU perspective, where audio is an added feature afterward. The cable you use will add jitter noise to your sound as well, before your DAC is your DAC. Do you have a good 3rd smaller clean power supply dedicated to the digital section in there?
Hey, that's a good point about hearing my noise floor! You just made these new 192khz copies of a 70's reel to reel recording sound obviously noisy! Hah, ok, I hear now, hopefully my next power cable will lose some of this noise I was ignoring. Hmm, my HD800 soundstage does indeed sound legendarily huge, while even better than initially through all of my cable choices. Plugging my pc into better or straight into the wall than those cheap $20 power bars was an eye popper for both audio and video, if you have one in one of those. Yes, a better power cable furthers that depth and clarity boost. My system is now only miles better compared to I started with, it's still not the live performance actually happening. Nice one, that's what to hear next after FLAC decompression noise, my noise floor is garbage with sounds. Oh man, from now on, I won't shut up about noise floor tweaks.

 

[gregorio]

Playing FLAC is the same job as playing uncompressed, but adds the step of working extra to put the uncompressed version into RAM.

You mean the extra work that was trivial for a 30 year old Pentium processor? Your computer is more defective (or ancient) than I thought!

digital is all about trying to avoid adding noise to your playback with your gear, which happens with every part you use.

No, it’s not. Again, that is the whole point of digital audio. Why do you think it was invented?

The cable you use will add jitter noise to your sound as well, before your DAC is your DAC.

No it won’t. And even if you use the wrong cable or one that’s way longer than specified, why isn’t your DAC reducing the jitter to way below audibility? Is it really possible you’re using a broken computer AND a broken DAC? If so, forget about a dream system costing millions, about $100 will get you a dream system compared to what you’re using currently! lol. Unless of course nothing is actually broken and you’re just deluding yourself?

You just made these new 192khz copies of a 70's reel to reel recording sound obviously noisy! Hah, ok, I hear now, hopefully my next power cable will lose some of this noise I was ignoring.

Yep, a power cable will definitely remove some of the noise from a 1970’s reel to reel recording! Not deluded at all, lol.

G

 

[GoldenSound]

Unlike analogue audio, noise/interference in the digital signal cannot be represented in the digital data and therefore ceases to exist

This part isn't the case. Many DACs will indeed behave differently due to noise from the source. The data is still correct, but a noisy source can either cause noise to be passed through to the output, or in some cases the noise can have indirect effects on things like the clock (which requires a clean/stable voltage to be accurate).

Though this is more a case of "Don't plug a dongle DAC into a beefy desktop and expect it to perform the same as when connected to your phone", and the argument of FLAC decoding on a full size PC causing any sort of noise that would be detectable is still ridiculous

 

[gregorio]

Nice one, that's what to hear next after FLAC decompression noise, my noise floor is garbage with sounds. Oh man, from now on, I won't shut up about noise floor tweaks.

There were so many gems in your post I missed this classic. How very “audiophile”, you’re now not going to shut up about tweaking something you couldn’t hear until I mentioned it! lol
How about a tweak that goes back in time and magically removes the studio’s acoustic and analogue noise floor before the song you’re playing was recorded?

This part isn't the case. Many DACs will indeed behave differently due to noise from the source.

That is the case. While *some* DACs *might* behave slightly differently, I don’t know any that will behave differently enough to be audible at reasonable listening levels. The worse DAC I know of in this regard was a unit by Schitt but even that was down at -85dB or so.

Though this is more a case of "Don't plug a dongle DAC into a beefy desktop and expect it to perform the same as when connected to your phone".

Well obviously there are conditions, for example, if the DAC is broken, being used incorrectly or for a task other than what it was designed for.

G

 

[GoldenSound]

That is the case. While *some* DACs *might* behave slightly differently, I don’t know any that will behave differently enough to be audible at reasonable listening levels. The worse DAC I know of in this regard was a unit by Schitt but even that was down at -85dB or so.

-85 is relative to full scale. Given the fact that RMS level of music at higher frequencies may be -30 or -40dB that shifts things in terms of audibility significantly.
Regardless, my point was just that it can make a difference. Whether it's audible is inconclusive and dependent on many factors including what's playing, the profile of noise and other effects etc

 

[gregorio]

-85 is relative to full scale.

Sure. So if your peak (full scale) level is a reasonable 85dBSPL, that noise will be at 0dBSPL and that’s the worst case I know of! Most DACs, even relatively cheap ones are significantly lower than that, assuming they’re not broken or being used inappropriately of course.

Regardless, my point was just that it can make a difference.

Again sure, lots of things can make a difference, our ability to detect and measure minuscule differences is literally astronomical. Whether it’s a difference that can even be resolved into acoustic sound, let alone be audible are entirely different questions though.

Whether it's audible is inconclusive and dependent on many factors including what's playing, the profile of noise and other effects etc

Indeed. In the given case (-85dB noise) this can be resolved into acoustic sound so it is valid to question whether it’s audible. Given the ideal noise profile (the critical band around 3kHz) it is possible to hear 0dBSPL, in fact down to about -8dBSPL is audible but this requires that you’re a young boy with perfect hearing in a world class anechoic chamber and without any other noise/sound. No audiophile that I’ve ever heard of complies with all those conditions, the vast majority are 50+ with significant hearing deterioration and are in a typical home listening environment vastly different (noisier) from a world class anechoic chamber. While I can’t say for certain that there are absolutely no audiophiles using that particular DAC, with an excellent listening environment and whose hearing has deteriorated by such a small amount they are still able to hear 0dBSPL (baring in mind the average 50 year old has hearing loss of about 15dB in the critical band), it’s hard to imagine there can be many of them.

G

 

[castleofargh]

My anecdotal experience with noise also in the -80dB or so on 2 occasions with old DACs, has been with special cases among usb powered DACs. And for those, usually something as simple as adding a powered hub or a usb card to avoid the usb plugs on the motherboard itself, would radically improve the noise level to below what my noob rig could measure at the time(below -100dB).
So I kind of assumed the issue when it existed, was the 5v line. And that using a powered DAC was the simple and logical fix. IDK if there are situations where the issue is serious enough to possibly be noticed, and doesn’t come from that 5v from the PC?

What I did notice is how some will spend thousands of dollars on their audio gear, but will get the cheapest PSU and Mobo for their PC build. It always strikes me as paradoxical. More so if we’re going to be paranoid about computers and noises.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

IDK if there are situations where the issue is serious enough to possibly be noticed, and doesn’t come from that 5v from the PC?

The other situation is infamous ground loop, when you could literally hear your hdd working and other PC noises like from moving mouse cursor, etc.
More or less decent DACs sport proper galvanic isolation so it is a lesser of the problem these days.

 

[Audiophiliac]

I'm streaming FLAC from Tidal through Audirvana right now. As amazing as it is having the best sounding player supporting my streaming service, streaming sounds muffled and not so clean, like local uncompressed copies would, even at 44.1khz. After the internet muffles them, and it's playing FLAC, it lets my gear shine, and already destroys what radio could ever do, even taking into account how much my used full size NAD tuner beats a receiver's built in tuner. Now, if only Audirvana would support downloading the FLAC, decompressing it to a local temp file, and then playing that file. We could truly have unbeatable original copy playback! Apparently my phone version of Tidal supports downloading, but that player isn't as good as local file players usually are, either.

 

[peterinvan]

I have suggested a few times that, when posting equipment reviews, that the reviewer state up front their personal hearing abilities. Some of us abused our ears when younger, paying the price in our golden years (ironically the age at which we can finally afford good equipment).

For example I am 75 years old, with an audiogram showing significant drop after 8KHz, with left/right about equal. Most of the reviewers I read seem to assume we all have "golden ears".

In addition, the reviewer should always show their preference in music genres.

This would make it easier to relate to what is being said about the equipment.

 

[Audiophiliac]

I have suggested a few times that, when posting equipment reviews, that the reviewer state up front their personal hearing abilities. Some of us abused our ears when younger, paying the price in our golden years (ironically the age at which we can finally afford good equipment).

For example I am 75 years old, with an audiogram showing significant drop after 8KHz, with left/right about equal. Most of the reviewers I read seem to assume we all have "golden ears".

In addition, the reviewer should always show their preference in music genres.

This would make it easier to relate to what is being said about the equipment.

I disagree with people having a hearing problem if they can't hear above 8khz.
Hearing the higher frequencies is only a single factor. You can still hear soundstage, driver speed, tonality, FR, dyanamic range, noise, jitter, power, data, and analogue cable differences, gear differences, and will always be having an issue of whether or not to either pay more for the smaller but much faster REL subwoofer, or just go ahead and spend your kid's inheritance on the big uber REL sub with the 2 big drivers, before people start saying 2 subs disperses the bass better than 1. A high frequency cutoff is not a reason to think your days as an audiophile are over. You should never buy into that crap. Kids will never know what to listen for.
Thanks for making me have to focus on my noise floor. However, I'm listening to local wav's right now, and they're simply and very cleanly what should be playing, no more.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

and analogue cable differences

Placebo is a powerful drug.

 

[Audiophiliac]

Placebo is a powerful drug.

You have no idea how good people must think your ears are, if you can't hear cable differences.

 

[GoldenSound]

You have no idea how good people must think your ears are, if you can't hear cable differences.

The James Randi foundation had a standing offer of $1,000,000 available to anyone able to successfully demonstrate an ability to discern between two speaker cables.
No one was able to claim it...

 

[Audiophiliac]

Oh man, so far I've only upgraded from stock spaghetti wire to $60 worth of speaker cable, because of how $$$ that length gets, but it was well worth it. After these speakers sell, I'm spending the $ on the entry level Magnepans, and will for sure want speaker cable next. The current entry level Magnepans are their newest model, and take advantage of all Magnepan has learned so far. People don't last longer than a year before spending real money on the higher models, so these ones show up used and half price often, in the used market. You need to work out the 71" tall speakers pulled out 1/3 into the room for them, but nobody else ever has a proper soundstage behind them, either. I'm considering putting my desk 1/3 into the room behind me, right in front of the couch, for a proper speaker soundstage. But then I'll need some tall stands for them. Even if I get the 71" tall models, hmm. Well, with the Sonarworks for speaker calibration also edition, these shorter Maggies should be ok up high. For a while, unless I love them... Apparently, they beat crack, even if you are richer than Ozzy. You just have to splurge for whichever size of REL sub you can afford, otherwise your sub bass will be embarrassingly slow compared to the speaker's range. After that, people will tell you bass is SO localized, and 2.2 systems are what people really need for proper bass coverage.