MQA Deep Dive - I published tracks on Tidal to test MQA

[castleofargh]

The James Randi foundation had a standing offer of $1,000,000 available to anyone able to successfully demonstrate an ability to discern between two speaker cables.
No one was able to claim it...

Well, you can make analog cables that will sound different into some gears(loudness/FR are the most likely to change, but if you make one that ruins the crosstalk, then you could get even more audible impact). It's fairly easy to change the FR with speakers actually as at the lowest speaker impedance, even a relatively small change in the cable's impedance(let's say +1ohm from a crappy plug) can become enough for audible level of EQ.

It's an endless debate because those who believe in change tend to go look for it, so of course they find it more often. While dudes like myself stability(I have powered speakers, I avoid extremely low impedance IEMs, I avoid high impedance DAPs, I never touch an amp with little to no negative feedback and high impedance output. Of course, cables are much less likely to be significant to me. Less so given that I measure them for a few variables when I get a new one, and absurd specs susceptible to cause more change to the signal, are sent back or thrown away if it's a super cheap cable.

Does this means I'm agreeing with @Audiophiliac on something?

 

[GoldenSound]

Well, you can make analog cables that will sound different into some gears(loudness/FR are the most likely to change, but if you make one that ruins the crosstalk, then you could get even more audible impact). It's fairly to change the FR with speakers actually as at the lowest speaker impedance, even a relatively small change in the cable's impedance(let's say +1ohm from a crappy plug) can become enough for audible level of EQ.

It's an endless debate because those who believe in change tend to go look for it, so of course they find it more often. While dudes like myself seeking stability(I have powered speakers, I avoid extremely low impedance IEMs, I avoid high impedance DAPs, I never touch an amp with little to no negative feedback and high impedance output. Of course, cables are much less likely to be significant to me. Less so given that I measure them for a few variables when I get a new one, and absurd specs susceptible to cause more change to the signal, are sent back or thrown away if it's a super cheap cable.

Does this means I'm agreeing with @Audiophiliac on something?

Yeah, this one was limited to 'normal' stuff that was not obviously broken or outside typical bounds in some way.
The prize wasn't actually specific to cables, but rather just an open offer to anyone who was able to demonstrate 'supernatural' abilities. Psychic/telekenesis etc, as James Randi had a long history of exposing faith healers, psychics, mediums and other swindlers. I would STRONGLY recommend watching the documentary "An Honest Liar" if anyone has not seen it, it's fantastic.



But as part of that 'supernatural' umbrella he also included many audiophile silliness things including cables. They'd need to be within the bounds of 'normal' though, ie no weird passive filter components that'd obviously alter the audible band of the signal, but besides that it was fairly open. It was aimed at people they can hear the difference between a generic cable and a fancy high end pure silver one etc even though both would have impedance/capacitance values that would not produce any level of audible effect

There was amusingly one company that initially offered to do the challenge publicly, but then backed out when the Randi foundation said they'd need to actually look inside the cables to make sure there was no cheating going on

 

[castleofargh]

I would STRONGLY recommend watching the documentary "An Honest Liar" if anyone has not seen it, it's fantastic.

I did when it came out. I'm very familiar with The Amazing Randi. As you might guess, I'm easily onboard with just about any debunking effort, from him to Sagan, or in a more humble and specific audio context, Ethan Winer, Bob Carver(could it be that you were thinking of him and his amplifier challenge instead of Randi?). I only have praises for those guys.
I've seen Randi eat homeopathic pills like Tic Tacs several times. And he lived to be 92, which shows how effective those pills were!

I'm sorry, I find myself following too many off topics.

 

[Audiophiliac]

My first IC upgrade was to the $60cdn BJC. It was way better than I had, and while comparing my $300 DAC to a friend's $1k cd player, the winner obviously went to the BJC sporter, every time. After that, my little dac nudged out the cd player, because the cd player was a little too into filtering out some noisy sounds, even though that helped make it better, also. Now, my $2400 dac makes me think the rest of my gear is a joke, including the only $60 power cable upgrades that went so well, they worked on everything else also.
My upgrade from BJC to something costing 5x as much due to higher purity copper was really great during a half price sale. The only problem with higher purity copper upgrades is, once you try to describe it as sounding like more money, because it works that way, is that it gets harder to describe other ways. Sounds more liquid and organic, too though. From now on I'm only going to choose a used cable for sale at the price range I'm looking for, since I can get one that retails for 2x as much that way, albeit limited to a much smaller selection.
Everyone on this forum with this dac that I went crazy and spent over $1200 for after all thinks I'm a cheapo and crazy for only getting $60 worth of power cable out of it. They're all talking about which >$400 power cable brings out it's sound the best, compared to the other >$400 pc's. At least I have to go to work in an hour, lol.
Yeah, you guys probably do all look like the guy in the Honest Liar trailer, if you like that: "Aha, those guys will always be doing that!"...
Maybe you should analyze the effect of not wanting to have to care about cable differences on your ears. It's true, your systems will never sound right if that's true, even with the $20k Nordost's.
Yeah, that's why you guys don't have a problem with FLAC or cables, your system just has to sound right, right?

 

[GoldenSound]

Tic Tacs several times. And he lived to be 92, which shows how effective those pills were!

His TED talk which included this was very amusing

 

[Audiophiliac]

Swapping from tubes to transistors made all the measurement devices except for people think they sounded better. Look how many tube aficionado's there are.
After finally getting a used speaker amp that costed roughly the same as my headphone tube amp, I'm buying the entry level Magnepans for it, and I'm not convinced that tubes will show off how fast people say my hd800 drivers are, compared to other dynamic headphones. Even though people say my tube amp is good at not having tube amp's usual problems. Maybe I'll buy the hp amp before selling the tube amp, and make a showdown have to decide, even though it will have to be before upgrading my hp cable to a balanced connection, if the ss amp wins. Yeah, I may end up in the tube amp camp, after all, but it will finally be due to a similarly priced showdown...
I know what you mean though, about how it would be better if the $20k Nordost IC actually didn't deliver my output any better. Those guys must only be paying for it to be built as sturdily as that. We should just all team up on all the audiophiles on the forums who want to get into how even their cables could be better than our beginner stuff!

 

[Audiophiliac]

My local Toronto's piano virtuoso, Glenn Gould, was known as a really picky guy, especially about temperature, (he thinks Canadians will never get that right, it's always too cold). He got the CBC to purchase 2 of the reel-to-reel recorders they decided to go with for him, and then he picked the one out of the 2 after comparing them that he said sounded better, to use.
Yeah, I bet you he was sitting around in Muskoka thinking pianists go with people even better than video gamers do.
Just tell all the women you're the high roller all the time, since they're always just waiting around bored in the meantime.
Oh hey, you guys have some better audio gear on top of it, too? Oh, shoot, you're the ones who think it would be better if other guy's cable's didn't get any better than that in the first place!
You guys are looking so poor for not even being eager to lie about how the original files uncompressed sound better, just to get with the women, lol!
All the women are dying to prove that what people look like contains more data than Shakespeare. Well, singers aren't so bad that way...
You know that woman in Mozart's Magic Flute who sings insanely technically well for a bit? Tough beans, that's how skilled Mozart made the "Queen of the Night" have to be while she disowns her daughter forevermore. Enrique Iglesias may be being the opposite for his supermodel woman of 20 years, but we still really need a male singer with skill who can match hers, somehow!

 

[GoldenSound]

Swapping from tubes to transistors made all the measurement devices except for people think they sounded better.

This is completely unrelated to what we were discussing previously.
Many people subjectively prefer tubes BECAUSE they colour the sound in ways people like.

The argument of 'is lower distortion always better' is not the same as 'do these two things make any difference in the first place'.
You won't find many people arguing that tube amps sound identical to solid state, and there are clear demonstrable reasons as to why

 

[nijfi]

I'm going back to Tidal now that they are cheaper and removing MQA. Why? Because they still have more tracks than Qobuz, especially for electronica.

Have you considered Deezer?

 

[BS5711]

You have no idea how good people must think your ears are, if you can't hear cable differences.

That is a great example of exactly how powerful placebo, expectation bias and other psychology is in audio !

 

[Audiophiliac]

This is completely unrelated to what we were discussing previously.
Many people subjectively prefer tubes BECAUSE they colour the sound in ways people like.

The argument of 'is lower distortion always better' is not the same as 'do these two things make any difference in the first place'.
You won't find many people arguing that tube amps sound identical to solid state, and there are clear demonstrable reasons as to why

I don't think it's the coloration that people like about tubes, rather more likely they have to keep trying for ones that don't color things the way they don't like. But besides the coloration, your audio plays through really big wire and glass vacuum tubes, compared to through miniaturized transistor chips, and people say it is more organic and less electronic sounding, that way. But people also say transistors are faster, and my speaker amp and what they say about my HD800 driver speed makes me want to buy a used ss headphone amp with also rave reviews for around the same price, and then sell the loser of the shootout. Speed and dynamics is where this $1400 amp blows away my old $800 speaker amp, and that's why I want to trade my speakers for the cheapest Magnepan's that are roughly the same price. Ultra high speed, but you have to warn new candidates that they are so fast because they actually don't move as much air as regular dynamic drivers, so ymmv. If it doesn't work out, I can always sell them and get the Vandersteen dynamic speakers that are said to win in every category for their price, including dynamic driver speed, even though that won't mean a whole new league of speed like the planar ribbon speakers. But fair enough, lots of my favorite music includes a drum kit playing, so why would I want to lose air movement distance? Except, listen to what my faster sounding amp and dac with the 3 class A power supplies do for my dynamic driver speed with drum kits already. Hmm, but they don't move as much air, just make a really tall fast soundstage, instead. Speed is good for tone and timbre, already. Nobody knows how to make dynamic drivers as fast as planar drivers yet. When the HD800's first came out, someone said people may not care about getting the Baby Orpheus headphones anymore, because of the HD800 driver speed. True enough, too. I just ordered Sonarworks with the speaker calibration upgrade, to try to keep my current $1800 and future speakers from being totally destroyed by my $1400 HD800's, which love getting the calibration they need. The Sonarworks corrected by microphones with like 100 parametric calibration points profile, lets me use a tiny plug-in only to work with Audirvana. EQ has probably never had a smaller footprint than that. You're right though, lots of people would rather buy a tube amp and then look for the tubes that correct the 800's, than buy an amp with tone controls, before using a proper EQ technique.
Seriously, my $1400 original HD800's totally destroy my $1800 speakers, which are the really nice NHT bookshelf speakers made tall with a bass driver on each inside for $ 50% more than the simple bookshelves. Lowering my sub's high cutoff, you can so hear bass coming from right there in front finally, so you will so need a 2.2 system before you're done, and REL's subs are 6.5" drivers for the price of everyone else's 8 or 10" drivers, because they move in and out way faster than everyone else's, and won't embarrass your planar ribbon speakers with flabby sub bass. You can spend the kid's college funds on REL's with big front firing and bigger bottom firing drivers if you want to, though. Thank goodness I had work today, lol!

 

[Elegiac]

This is completely unrelated to what we were discussing previously.
Many people subjectively prefer tubes BECAUSE they colour the sound in ways people like.

The argument of 'is lower distortion always better' is not the same as 'do these two things make any difference in the first place'.
You won't find many people arguing that tube amps sound identical to solid state, and there are clear demonstrable reasons as to why

You never did a full review of the Soncoz SGA1, but those second and third harmonics are part of why I picked it up. Such a smooth amp.

I remember you talking about the Meze 109 Pro, saying that it wasn't bright at all. And there on your desk was the SGA1. It's very hard for a decent headphone to sound like anything except butter on that amp, hahaha

On topic, ahem, MQA got dropped. Yay. MQA-CD is the cheekiest, most disrespectful thing possible.

 

[Audiophiliac]

On topic, ahem, MQA got dropped. Yay. MQA-CD is the cheekiest, most disrespectful thing possible.

Ty, people who think people who don't have to be criminals are better don't like scam ideas any time.

 

[Elegiac]

I'm staring hard at that sentence.

 

[gregorio]

It's true, your systems will never sound right if that's true, even with the $20k Nordost's.
Yeah, that's why you guys don't have a problem with FLAC or cables, your system just has to sound right, right?

By “right” you mean broken, like yours? You’re contradicting yourself here, you mentioned dream systems costing over a million and many commercial recording and dubbing studios have systems costing over a million and yet they do NOT use nonsense audiophile cables, they use regular from Mogami, Canare, Van Damme and others that costs a few bucks a metre and Neutrik connectors that also only cost a few bucks each. If standard (non-audiophile) cables make such a difference to the sound then:
1. How come none of the commercial studios have noticed in the last half a century and
2. Whatever distortion/noise is supposedly caused by standard cheap cable is already baked into the recordings you’re reproducing. Are you really claiming some magical ability of audiophile cables to not only identify that noise/distortion but then also remove it?
Do you really think that something as simple as the performance of audio cables is not understood and cannot be measured or quantified after 140 years, that some tiny little audiophile snake oil companies have got the R&D jump on the trillion dollar telecoms and hundreds of billions audio and A/V industries? Have you never heard of James Clark Maxwell, Oliver Heaviside or the classical laws of physics/electromagnetism?

Some people just seem determined to be easy marks and scammed, and not only never realise they’ve been scammed but are so deluded they argue to the ends of the earth that the claimed magical properties are real and it’s everyone else that has deficient understanding and hearing! lol

G