MQA Deep Dive - I published tracks on Tidal to test MQA

[Currawong]

I thought that this thread was about MQA? Maybe more relevant is that Lenbrook has split MQA into bunch of different things.

https://www.techradar.com/audio/wir...dio-though-we-used-to-know-it-by-another-name

 

[Audiophiliac]

Bandwidth is cheap. Why do we need to risk sound problems through attempts at further correction?
Non MQA tracks sound great.

 

[gregorio]

Well, it's the same people trying to tell me I am wrong to hear a difference, so goodbye head-fi losers. Have a good time with your gear that makes everything sound the same, I won't bother arguing any further. Tin ears.

As there is no difference, then are you right or wrong to hear a difference? And, why do you think we have tin ears for hearing no difference where there is no difference but you don’t have tin ears for hearing a difference where there isn’t one?

Let's just say that the original uncompressed file is indisputably correct, and any compression is empirical evidence supporting changes.

You mean “Let’s just say” something that is false, why would we do that? FLAC compression/decompression is empirical evidence that does not support changes, it’s identical.

I'm old school, and ask what's the point of risking altering the original simplicity?

No one is risking the original simplicity, what we end up with is identical to the original.

Why are you telling me what I can't hear?

Because there is no difference to hear. Why don’t you ask yourself the converse: Why are you telling us you can hear a difference when there is no difference to hear.

It's not my problem what differences you can't hear.

The differences we can or cannot hear is NOT the problem and is irrelevant. The problem is; what differences can you hear when there aren’t any differences?

I didn't notice a difference between wav and FLAC until I was 50.

So you only noticed a difference (where there isn’t one) when your hearing deteriorated?

Why do we need to risk sound problems through attempts at further correction?

There is no risk and no “attempts at further correction”.

G

 

[Audiophiliac]

As there is no difference, then are you right or wrong to hear a difference? And, why do you think we have tin ears for hearing no difference where there is no difference but you don’t have tin ears for hearing a difference where there isn’t one?

If you can't hear differences, too bad, you won't think better gear is that much different.

You mean “Let’s just say” something that is false, why would we do that? FLAC compression/decompression is empirical evidence that does not support changes, it’s identical.

The original unaltered is the original. You are arguing about whether making a mix-tape on a Nakamichi Dragon tape deck is actually detectably different.

No one is risking the original simplicity, what we end up with is identical to the original.

Because there is no difference to hear. Why don’t you ask yourself the converse: Why are you telling us you can hear a difference when there is no difference to hear.

The differences we can or cannot hear is NOT the problem and is irrelevant. The problem is; what differences can you hear when there aren’t any differences?

So you only noticed a difference (where there isn’t one) when your hearing deteriorated?

There is no risk and no “attempts at further correction”.

G

If you don't find FLAC noisy, you won't have to care too much about better gear, so don't worry about it. You are not welcome to tell me that hearing a difference is not possible. I understand, FLAC is your emperor, and you're more into guys with no clothes on.

 

[BS5711]

The standard “I can’t help it if your hearing isn’t good enough” logic

 

[Audiophiliac]

If my hearing sucked, heck yeah I would also lie and say uncompressed, just to get with a woman criminally!

 

[gregorio]

If you can't hear differences, too bad, you won't think better gear is that much different.

I can hear differences, what I can’t hear is differences when there aren’t any differences and how is that “too bad”, it’s actually good!

The original unaltered is the original.

So is an exact digital copy, so is a FLAC after decompression.

You are arguing about whether making a mix-tape on a Nakamichi Dragon tape deck is actually detectably different.

Of course I’m not, a Nakamichi tape deck isn’t even a digital device, let alone a lossless digital compression scheme. You seem to be arguing without even knowing the difference between analogue and digital audio?

If you don't find FLAC noisy, you won't have to care too much about better gear, so don't worry about it.

I do find FLAC noisy, it is exactly as noisy as the noise contained in the recording that it encoded.

You are not welcome to tell me that hearing a difference is not possible.

And you are not welcome to tell others that hearing a difference is possible when there is no difference!

G

 

[Audiophiliac]

I'm just trying to shut down "FLAC is still the same" arguments, since someone somewhere else successfully shut down MQA, even though head-fi'ers were rude to me about thinking it's worse than the originals, especially while having to buy the extra unnecessary decoder chip also. Remember that guys? You were rude to me for saying MQA won't work? Called me crazy and talking nonsense, and all that.
Like I said above, if my hearing sucked, heck yeah I would even think of lying for a chance to say uncompressed beats adultered copies, just to get with a woman criminally!

 

[gregorio]

I'm just trying to shut down "FLAC is still the same" arguments, since someone somewhere else successfully shut down MQA …

But they are two entirely different things, MQA is a lossy encoder so by definition cannot “still be the same”, FLAC however is lossless so by definition must “still be the same”. So what you are “trying to shut down” as far as FLAC is concerned is the actual proven facts!

Remember that guys? You were rude to me for saying MQA won't work?

No I don’t remember that, can you quote where I did that? And, MQA does work, that is not in question, what’s in question is that it doesn’t work as well as lossless (or any better than other lossy codecs for that matter) but consumers had to directly or indirectly pay fees for MQA, while FLAC and other codecs are free. So MQA was effectively a ripoff.

G

 

[Audiophiliac]

But they are two entirely different things, MQA is a lossy encoder so by definition cannot “still be the same”, FLAC however is lossless so by definition must “still be the same”. So what you are “trying to shut down” as far as FLAC is concerned is the actual proven facts!

No, the instant compression adds an extra step before or after outputting complete simplicity is by definition NOT the same, and can't no longer hope to be identical. You are already automatically busted for using electricity. Your gear could be better, even if it costs more to make, I bet. Hey, you want a computer to compute an audio output in the first place? Those are complex!

No I don’t remember that, can you quote where I did that? And, MQA does work, that is not in question, what’s in question is that it doesn’t work as well as lossless (or any better than other lossy codecs for that matter) but consumers had to directly or indirectly pay fees for MQA, while FLAC and other codecs are free. So MQA was effectively a ripoff.

G

MQA was still FLAC that got MQA encoded on top of that, don't mistake the unrealistic claim to hide up to 192khz inside of 44.1khz data if you buy your same DAC model again with our cheap chip to make everything have to playback through first in it as still being possible to be no different from the dedicated to without it playback.
See how long that sentence had to be? MQA is being wiped from ever wanting to have heard of. I'm just trying to hustle the rest that remains different than local uncompressed playback, which could be happening today, as soon as a player supports downloading and decompressing to a temporary local file in advance, and then simply playing that file.

 

[Death_Block]

I don't know if I like guys or girls now

 

[GoldenSound]

Uncompressed is the original untampered with

The original is also often FLAC that is delivered to the label/publisher. Many of these companies won't be keeping WAV copies when there's no reason to, they're not going to just store many petabytes of extra data if they don't need to.

Yes, MQA "folding data into into 44.1khz data" was always a lie, and actually did get proven by hardware meters which people bought to prove it.

Technically this part wasn't an outright lie. It DID store some of the 22.05-44.1khz info and put it back during the core decode, the issue was that they claimed that this process was lossless when it was not and they were not clear about the additional drawbacks/compromises that their process incurred. Also the fact that a huge amount of content was 44.1khz originally but converted to MQA purely for marketing reasons when there was literally no reason to do so and would only cause negative effects.

Additionally whilst the core decode (which could be done by the player) did restore some of that info, the 'renderer' part that was baked into devices was in reality just a fixed upsampling filter that did not do any of the folding stuff, hence why they never let any of those devices ever include a digital output else people would be able to easily check that.

Are you still positive that MQA is the same?

No one is making the same argument in regards to MQA. Lossy compression methods such as MQA and MP3 are a completely different debate to lossless compression.

Especially if you buy gear with an extra chip for everything to pass through that the original doesn't need?

MQA didn't require an additional chip to process. The 'renderer' just ran on the XMOS chip that many devices already had, hence why a lot of devices got MQA support retroactively. It required a license paid to MQA, but didn't require extra hardware.

The 'full decoder' option required the use of one of the more expensive XMOS chips but this wasn't an extra piece of hardware that wasn't there already.

Will this thread get locked if I am anti-MQA?

No, there are many of us which are quite firmly against MQA (I was the one that published the test tracks on Tidal and made the original video btw), but most of the discussions had have been fairly civil and constructive, unlike what has happened over the last couple pages here. The issue isn't your position, it's that you're unwilling to listen to what anyone is saying and are responding in a quite hostile manner rather than trying to argue or explain your point with sound reasoning.

Why do you even subscribe to a streaming service? YouTube already won't tell you the 90% you're missing as mp3 versions.

Because we do want lossless quality. Again, the argument of MP3 vs lossless is entirely separate from the FLAC vs WAV debate.
FLAC and WAV both contain literally identical information bit for bit. FLAC is just a more efficient way of storing it. MP3 loses information/data to save more space and cannot be decoded/restored to retrieve the same original information. No one here is arguing that MP3 and FLAC are identical.

 

[Audiophiliac]

I'm done arguing. It's not my problem that you can't hear less noise when wav, and I hope you surprisingly find it offensive that I do, I guess.

 

[BS5711]

And we circle back to “I can’t help it if your hearing isn’t good enough”.

Boy it gets so old hearing that all over Head Fi, it seems all the people with hearing beyond scientific understanding are audiophiles, why is that do you think ?

You guys with this level of hearing ability need to get together and help science redefine the current data in respect of the limits of human hearing and show us tin eared losers that you were right after all.

 

[Audiophiliac]

And we circle back to “I can’t help it if your hearing isn’t good enough”.

Boy it gets so old hearing that all over Head Fi, it seems all the people with hearing beyond scientific understanding are audiophiles, why is that do you think ?

You guys with this level of hearing ability need to get together and help science redefine the current data in respect of the limits of human hearing and show us tin eared losers that you were right after all.

When my lady gets me, I don't FLAC around...