[Trysaeder]

Whoa you started pretty damn high. I think that's a better idea to give a more realistic example of how things sound in practice, rather than showing the fletcher munson effect.
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Yup. I know that program. I already tried it with several earphones I owe, the most neutral of which being the HF5:
 

 
 
 

 

 

[Uncle Erik]

The Denons are not neutral. All of them are tuned for heavy bass.

 

[Sinocelt]

 
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HD800, HD600, DT880, K701

 
They do have similar FR curves:
 

 
Those the raw FR response curves are more different:
 




 
Any suggestion for closed-back cans?
 
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Whoa you started pretty damn high.

 
You can't know that really, looking only at this chart but not knowing the amp I used (DACport) and how much I cranked it up.

 

[Tyrranny]

Can anyone give me their opinion on how LFF's Paradox would compare to the AKG, Sennheiser, Beyer, Grado offerings? I've read that the Paradox is one of the most nuetral cans money can buy, and they are closed. 

 

[Sinocelt]

  Can anyone give me their opinion on how LFF's Paradox would compare to the AKG, Sennheiser, Beyer, Grado offerings? I've read that the Paradox is one of the most nuetral cans money can buy, and they are closed. 

 
I've read the same thing (neutral neutraling neutrality) about another T50rp-based pair of closed headphones: the Alpha Dog.

 

[ScareDe2]

On the web site https://soundcloud.com/sonic-sense-pro-audio you can compare many headphones to the source track. What they did I think is use a dummy head and record how these headphones sounds inside the ear of the dummy head. The m40x comes out as the most neutral. I think the beyerdynamic custom pro is the second best. But there are many headphones not on this list that I would like to compare such as the oppo pm3, the fostex th-x00, some akg's like the k553 and of course the infamous nad viso hp50.

 

[Stabby]

That really depends on your hearing thresholds and listening levels, no? Headphones that are neutral at 80dB level would not sound neutral at 60dB. Likewise, people with a 20-30dBA threshold at 6-8kHz due to mild hearing loss would experience headphones with a 5dB bump at those frequencies as more neutral. That may also be the case with normal hearing threholds since tresholds are usually not elevated until more than 50% of your inner ear hair cells are damaged (but it can still affect loudness perception).

 

[ScareDe2]

Likewise, people with a 20-30dBA threshold at 6-8kHz due to mild hearing loss would experience headphones with a 5dB bump at those frequencies as more neutral.

I think I disagree. Hearing loss is gradual. We know the brain works hard to make things sound neutral. I don't think people can realise they lose hearing unless it is a next day brutal change or a severe medical condition. Healthy ears has a big peak in the 5 Khz area, but the brain makes it sound neutral anyway. I think it works the same the other way around, with people less sensitive in particular region over time. People with gradual hearing loss would adapt to their new frequency sensivity. The headphone would still sound the same forever, basically.

I mean a 5db bump at 6-8 Khz will always be perceived as a 5db bump. Even if the ears are less sensitive in that region over time. Bright headphones will remain bright forever, and dark ones dark. Neutral will remain neutral.

 

[SilverEars]

I think I disagree. Hearing loss is gradual. We know the brain works hard to make things sound neutral. I don't think people can realise they lose hearing unless it is a next day brutal change or a severe medical condition. Healthy ears has a big peak in the 5 Khz area, but the brain makes it sound neutral anyway. I think it works the same the other way around, with people less sensitive in particular region over time. People with gradual hearing loss would adapt to their new frequency sensivity. The headphone would still sound the same forever, basically.

I mean a 5db bump at 6-8 Khz will always be perceived as a 5db bump. Even if the ears are less sensitive in that region over time. Bright headphones will remain bright forever, and dark ones dark. Neutral will remain neutral.

According to the Fletch-Munson curves, the most sensitive area is 3-4k. And as the volumes get louder, lower and upper frequences gets closer in sensitivity, but lower is most senstive to volume. Hence volume match when doing comparisons for fair comparisons.

 

[Stabby]

I think I disagree. Hearing loss is gradual. We know the brain works hard to make things sound neutral. I don't think people can realise they lose hearing unless it is a next day brutal change or a severe medical condition. Healthy ears has a big peak in the 5 Khz area, but the brain makes it sound neutral anyway. I think it works the same the other way around, with people less sensitive in particular region over time. People with gradual hearing loss would adapt to their new frequency sensivity. The headphone would still sound the same forever, basically.

I mean a 5db bump at 6-8 Khz will always be perceived as a 5db bump. Even if the ears are less sensitive in that region over time. Bright headphones will remain bright forever, and dark ones dark. Neutral will remain neutral.

Even though something may sound neutral to a person with mild hearing loss, it will not sound the same to someone with normal hearing. It's very subjective. This is why Grados and Beyerdynamics are described by some as neutral while being ear piercing to me, and I'm not sensitive to treble.

I think Rudy Van Gelder remasters are a good example of this. Every 80+ year old has highly elevated tresholds in the 5-8kHz range, there are no exceptions to this. Those remasters must have sounded pretty neutral to him but they sound like something I'd expect to hear from hearing aids with boosted high mids/treble and high levels of compression at those frequencies (compression is always applied in hearing aids to restore loudness perception levels).

Also worth mentioning that as an audiologist and optician, I've seen many people claim their bad (sometimes even terrible) hearing/eyesight is good. So once again, this is all very subjective. My claims are not absolute truth but merely my own findings based on personal experience.

 

[hatrack71]

I found a cheap headphone that to my ears sounds reasonable flat. The Audio Technica ATH-M40fs. I bought two pair from a studio liquidating all it's gear. So, I'm not the only one who thought they were neutral sounding.

 

[ScareDe2]

Even though something may sound neutral to a person with mild hearing loss, it will not sound the same to someone with normal hearing. It's very subjective. This is why Grados and Beyerdynamics are described by some as neutral while being ear piercing to me, and I'm not sensitive to treble.

I think Rudy Van Gelder remasters are a good example of this. Every 80+ year old has highly elevated tresholds in the 5-8kHz range, there are no exceptions to this. Those remasters must have sounded pretty neutral to him but they sound like something I'd expect to hear from hearing aids with boosted high mids/treble and high levels of compression at those frequencies (compression is always applied in hearing aids to restore loudness perception levels).

Also worth mentioning that as an audiologist and optician, I've seen many people claim their bad (sometimes even terrible) hearing/eyesight is good. So once again, this is all very subjective. My claims are not absolute truth but merely my own findings based on personal experience.

Yes the grados and beyers have bright top. The beyers are called neutral because although they have peaks in the very far top region, the rest of the frequency response is very good. Truly neutral headphone is something extremely rare. I guess we make concessions, we get used to the brightness and learn to be happy with that. But again, I think the brain adapt (unless severe case), although everyone hearing is different, the relation between the ambiant noise and our headphone stay the exact same forever. For example If I lose some hearing in the 6-8 Khz region, everything in real life will sound reduced in that region, the way I hear my headphone is always relative to that everyday real life sound. So, a brighter than normal 6k region in an headphone will remain brighter the same, unless, like in your example, the guy is 80+ years, both his brain and his ears are way older at that point. Probably the brain at that age do not adapt as well and the hearing loss is too much.