[parhelictriangle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif The reality of both threads is that there are people who like both. Find another crusade to fight.

X2

Nothing turns into an ugly "your favorite headphones are deeply flawed and mine are nearly perfect" flamefest faster than a K701 vs HD650 thread. Can't we all just get along? They're both fairly fantastic, but different.

 

[rds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by parhelictriangle /img/forum/go_quote.gif T You make a comment that appears deliberately offensive to a lot of modern musicians (myself included) and essentially states that the entire, hugely-complex and variable timbral signature of something like an electric guitar through a meticulously set-up amplifier with a specifically-selected and voiced speaker is essentially worthless sonic information. The ability to reproduce those very real sound waves and that very complex timbral information has no bearing on whether the headphones are "natural." Wonderful. And I'm the smug one.

Look, I think you're getting stuck on your own hang ups. I have no issues with the guitar. I play guitar and listen to lots of guitar based music. I also listen to electronic music - which I feel can be a rich and nuanced as any other music genre.

Now one more time, what I said is that how a headphone reproduces a PA is meaningless. You can only judge naturalness based on how it reproduces un-amplified instruments because we are all familiar with how those sound to a large degree.
How do we know if Sunn o))) is being reproduced naturally when we don't know all the effects and feedback systems that are being using?

On the other hand when I hear a Steinway, even though I haven't hard that exact one with its exact tunning, the sound is so similar that I can get a good feeling for if it is being reproduced right.
As a guitarist you must know that the sound from different guitars vary hugely, not to mention different amps, tunings, effects, etc.

It's simple and obvious to me.

If you feel I'm slighting the electric guitar then maybe that stems from some insecurity that you have. I like electrics, pedals, effects, etc, and lots of purely synthetic music too. Look at my last.fm for a clue.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CodeToad /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for music they sound tinny, plastic and "am radio"-like. "Natural" should never be found in the same sentence as "701".

Obviously (see provisional poll result) many disagree. I like both and consider the K 701 the more neutral and natural of the two (also depends on the recording, though).
.

 

[parhelictriangle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif Look, I think you're getting stuck on your own hang ups. I have no issues with the guitar. I play guitar and listen to lots of guitar based music. I also listen to electronic music - which I feel can be a rich and nuanced as any other music genre. Now one more time, what I said is that how a headphone reproduces a PA is meaningless. You can only judge naturalness based on how it reproduces un-amplified instruments because we are all familiar with how those sound to a large degree. How do we know if Sunn o))) is being reproduced naturally when we don't know all the effects and feedback systems that are being using? On the other hand when I hear a Steinway, even though I haven't hard that exact one with its exact tunning, the sound is so similar that I can get a good feeling for if it is being reproduced right. As a guitarist you must know that the sound from different guitars vary hugely, not to mention different amps, tunings, effects, etc. It's simple and obvious to me. If you feel I'm slighting the electric guitar then maybe that stems from some insecurity that you have. I like electrics, pedals, effects, etc, and lots of purely synthetic music too. Look at my last.fm for a clue.

Don't have any insecurity as a guitarist and I listen to and play a lot more than guitar-based music too (see my namesake!). Just wasn't seeing your point initially. Inasmuch as using a familiar traditionally-acoustic instrument as a better reference gauge of "natural", I actually agree with you. I didn't think that was the point you were trying to make (part of my misinterpretation might come down to some of the more ridiculously narrow-minded music-snobbery I've seen recently in similar k701-themed threads. I apologize for mixing you up in that, but that comment was mostly in jest on my part).

I don't think that accurate reproduction of a PA system (or at least the actual instrument amplifiers) is entirely "meaningless" (although it is certainly problematic for exactly the reasons you stated) but I also don't think that's really what you're trying to say.

Just (ultimately, very-) slightly different views on this; no offense intended and I respect your opinion. Wasn't trying to be nasty here.

Edit: apologies for the ridiculous amount of parentheticals; I haven't been sleeping much lately and my grasp of written communication seems to be failing.

 

[brokensound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif I believe the bass problem on the 701 can be fixed with tubes mainly and maybe a new cable but the tilted mids is another story, I'm at a loss as to how to fix that one. Only thing I can think of is to use EQ to relax the mids a bit and even that is more of a patch then a solution.

I'm not a fanboy of either. I actually enjoy both very much, that's why I listen to both. I believe both are capable of scaling very well. And yes I do understand they both have flaws, but as I've said before, if I'm listening to some buddies playing the guitar and singing acoustically, the K701 is more natural sounding than the hd650. Furthermore, when I attend the orchestra, the k701 sounds closer to what I hear than the hd650.

I'm not going to argue about which can reproduce an actual rock/rap/pop concert because it gets too messy w/ the PA system, venue, number of attendants, et al...

 

[rds]

These last two posts get at my point.

The k701 reproduces live acoustic music like how I hear it at concerts.

As for concerts where PA systems are used in my experience bands often are forced to use or at least incorporate the club's PA (as well as the club's sound guy) and in my experience those PAs often sound very dark and bassy. So maybe that's more like a senn, but I like the 650s and I don't like the sound I usually hear at clubs.

Hope that makes some sense.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...how a headphone reproduces a PA is meaningless. You can only judge naturalness based on how it reproduces un-amplified instruments because we are all familiar with how those sound to a large degree.

I concur.


Quote:

How do we know if Sunn o))) is being reproduced naturally when we don't know all the effects and feedback systems that are being using?

Very true.

However, I understand the wish for a headphone capable of reproducing rock music with a similar characteristic as a live concert. But a neutral headphone can't do that. It would have to have a coloration reminding of a PA system. The guitar amp alone isn't the real problem, since it's recorded through a microphone. But you'd still miss the «impact» from bass guitars and especially drums and bass drums, which in fact is based on a resonance/resonances enhanced through the PA system in a live event. And remember that the sound is mixed for speaker systems and their specific colorations.
.

It's all about compromizes.

.

 

[rhythmdevils]

more people here think the K701 sounds more natural than the HD650? seriously? I don't personally like the HD650 except when it is driven by a few world class amps, but it by far presents instruments with a more realistic tone.

there are a whole plethora of instruments that just don't sound the way they do in real life on the K701. don't get me wrong, the K701's presentation is gorgeous. Just not realistic to planet earth

 

[parhelictriangle]

Agreed; club PA systems and sound men are generally terrible. I usually gauge sound of amplified instruments based on my own experience with similar setups (not including the club PA, but definitely including the instrument amps), which certainly isn't a very efficient process and my knowledge is pretty far from encyclopedic.

The HD650 bass to low mid presentation sounds (and feels) a little bit more "natural" to me (and I don't have a ton of experience with the K701s) because the balance between the fundamental and harmonic seems closer to my experience. But that really just comes down to listening preference, and probably ear structure too.

I don't listen to a lot of vocal music, but I'm sure a lot of k701 setups do that wonderfully (among other things). I could see from my little auditions with the K701s why some would prefer them, but I didn't. I'd love to hear them on a great rig some day, but I don't imagine it would make me hate my 650s.

Neither headphone is perfect and to each their own, imo.

rhythmdevils: the poll isn't scientific and people will be quick to defend their favorite headphone, especially when there's a perceived slight against it somewhere. If Acix started this thread, you'd probably see the opposite trend.

 

[nadavnaz]

I'd say the k701 and 650 sound respectively more natural than one another with different music.

 

[Acix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by parhelictriangle /img/forum/go_quote.gif If Acix started this thread, you'd probably see the opposite trend.

Acix wouldn't stoop so low! Besides, I wouldn't need to start this thread because I would gain nothing by proving 650 to be unbalanced. I already made my choice and I'm very happy with it!

I'll leave the chaos and manipulation strategies to others, they can do their part to create unrest and maybe they can feel good about it, if that's what makes them happy. I do not support duality. I do support balance and stability, so my choice is obvious.

As far as I can tell, your Apogee will love the 702.

 

[CodeToad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acix /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'll leave the chaos and manipulation strategies to others, they can do their part to create unrest

I don't understand this mindset that is so pervasive here at HF. Sharing your personal opinion with others when asked to do so in an online public forum is creating unrest?

 

[dcpoor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CodeToad /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't understand this mindset that is so pervasive here at HF. Sharing your personal opinion with others when asked to do so in an online public forum is creating unrest?

he's probably not talking about you.

 

[Happy Camper]

Here is how I see them. Non amped instruments 701s, amped instruments 650s.

 

[doping panda]

Or better yet. Non amped instruments K500, amped instruments HD600.