[Shike]

 
Quote:

Someone's calling someone else arrogant and factually wrong.
 
Since it's so easy to measure the difference that amps make on headphones, and it is widely accepted to be 'factually correct', show some.

Already did:
 
http://www.stereophile.com/content/between-ears-art-and-science-measuring-headphones-page-4
 
Output impedance acts like a voltage divider which can change frequency response.  The degree it does is based on the inductance of the headphone presented which means some frequencies will have higher voltage and lower voltage than others.  With a high damping factor (low output impedance) the effect is minimized.  With high output impedance and certain headphones it can cause large margins of error of the headphones FR (such as 5dB).
 
I made the point in post 24 that the error of this test is only 1dB on the HD650, so while some of us could DBT it (I've done it before), it's painful and time consuming to do.  As such I said it wasn't probably a big deal and that this time luckily the heapdhones worked fairly well with the amp only showing minimal error.  I then proceed to be berated and insulted by the OP who clearly doesn't finish through any post I've made regarding the potential issue (that turned out to pretty much be a non-issue) still throwing a tizzy about his doctrine, while he's made various false claims regarding me and my position multiple times.
 
If you read his responses you'll find out they're mostly in disconnect to what's actually been said by me and highlight what I'm getting at.  He's put paragraphs of words in my mouth that I completely disagree with assuming it's my position.  It's offensive to say the least, and he's done it continually.

 

[sugarkang]

New segment on classical and jazz up.  New EQ settings to match all headphones to the Denon.  If you own an HD-650 or a DT-880, look at the EQ settings to get a close-ish approximation to the Denon AH-D2000 sound without actually buying it. 

 

[bisayaboi]

Quote:

I think we are in agreement.  After all, I had to EQ the DT-880 down.  This is a problem with that entire Beyer line.  But did you notice that when you roll off the top end, it's pretty similar to the HD-650.  In fact, at bleeding loud levels, I can't tell the difference between the cans.  However, at sort of "comfortable" volume levels, the DT-880 gives a more Grado type feel. 
 
Anyway, the TL;DR version is that I like the DT-880 just a tad more, but the HD-650 doesn't need EQing at all, so it wins. 
 

 
Quote:

I prefer the Sennheiser mids in my guitar rock more than my bright treble DT880.
 
I enjoy hearing every natural bit, detail, and attack of the guitar with my HD650. I couldn't do that with my DT880. I hear emphasis on cymbals (treble) which honestly does nothing for me.
 
Also great review. I have gained more interest in Denon's now.
 

 

Yes they do share similarities. I've EQ'd the DT880 to a Sennheiser like sound before I got the HD650.
Although I do use EQ they can be sometimes no match for a hardware replacement.
When I got the HD650 it felt like they sounded similar to my EQ'd DT880 but the HD650 sounded so much more natural.
Also I'm somewhat of a basshead so I craved more with the DT880 and the HD650 has kind of gave me the bass I wanted... but now I'm really interested in hearing the D2000..although I could never give up the HD650's mids. It's truly magical. Treble is also done perfectly on the HD650/
 

 

[iHasCake]

suggestion for a mod, or maybe sugarkang can pm them or something.  maybe they could delete shike's posts and sugarkang's replies to him.  they've has done nothing but detract from the point of this thread.
 
with that said, enjoying the review so far.  thanks sugarkang.

 

[sugarkang]

Well, thanks.
I know there's not a lot of us, but I'm glad it helped.
If my amp were truly different, I wouldn't get a lot of similar results that other people got.  
I understand why people want to bury their head in the sand.
It would be admitting that:
1. half of their hobby is irrelevant
2. they are stupid for paying so much money
 
If anyone owns either the HD-650 or DT-880, I urge you to try my EQ settings to compare.
If you have feedback for tweaks, I would welcome that as well.
 
I know there are a lot of people who believe what i do, but just don't post.
Lots of people just use Head-Fi as a buying resource, but never bother to stick around.
 
I'm going to spend the next day or so doing some uncritical listening and get a general sense of the headphones.
I'll post final thoughts afterward.  And then it's bye-bye head-fi.
 
 
 
 
Quote:

suggestion for a mod, or maybe sugarkang can pm them or something.  maybe they could delete shike's posts and sugarkang's replies to him.  they've has done nothing but detract from the point of this thread.
 
with that said, enjoying the review so far.  thanks sugarkang.

 

[zyzyx]

Good thread...well-written and interesting within the confines that you established. Furthermore, as a happy D2000 owner, well, this helps lessen the urge to splurge

 

[ajreynol]

I have to agree.  So far, after trying a great many cans (as Head-Fi is well aware at this point), I must say that I enjoy the Denon line the most.  But that's just me. 
 
I'm auditioning the D7000s and HD650's for the rest of the month.  I think my thoughts will wind up pretty interesting indeed.

 

[sugarkang]

If you have the D5000 now, can you comment on the differences between 2000/5000, particularly soundstage or room acoustics?
Also, if you could give comments on how your findings differ with mine?
 
Quote:

I have to agree.  So far, after trying a great many cans (as Head-Fi is well aware at this point), I must say that I enjoy the Denon line the most.  But that's just me. 
 
I'm auditioning the D7000s and HD650's for the rest of the month.  I think my thoughts will wind up pretty interesting indeed.

 

[doing]

Sugarkang, if I am not mistaken you just bought a d5000, congrats and I am really looking forward to what you think of them.  Maybe you can even include it in your current comparison although maybe it's not mid fi ish.  I rather see it here since I find comparisons more helpful rather then straight up review since I get better frame of reference.
 
Also I wish you could include mid fi headphones from the other big boys, personally from Grado, AKG, Audio Technica.  Although I know bass is very important to you and that itself may have you not bother consider them. Yes plenty had been said about them and there are plenty of impressions around, but not so with your philosophy.  I find it very fresh.  Keep up the good work. 

 

[windcar]

Hi sugarkang, can you provide a EQ to make the D5000/D2000 sound like HD650 and DT8800?

 

[sugarkang]

I assume you already read AJReynol's thorough Denon comparison?
 
Bummer that I didn't see it until today.  However, I was also pleasantly surprised that we made a lot of similar discoveries.  If you read both of our reviews, you'll notice how we both agree on the Denons doing a lot of genres right.  Up until my Denon review, I had been a believer of separating hip hop and bass heavy electronica type music to bass heavy cans only.  So this discovery actually obviates my first bass test, to an extent. 
 
AJReynol also suggests that the D-5000 will only be a marginal improvement, which I actually find encouraging rather than discouraging.  That is, after I listened to the D-2000, I couldn't see how much better you could get with the D-5000 (I'm now really interested in those monster sized JVC's).  What I'm going for at this point is purely soundstage and presentation.  All the bass, mids, treble discussion is no longer an issue for me, at least within the Denon line. 
 
I spent the entire Sunday listening to classical and jazz (mostly Keith Jarrett) and I can say that the HD-650 has a slight, but nonetheless palpable win over the D-2000.  But today was really the exception rather than the rule.  I usually listen to guitar based music.  All the rocks:  garage, space, indie, shoegaze, post, punk, hard, classic.  I like country music and folk stuff as well.  So, in those arenas that I spend most of my time in, it's clearly the D-2000 FTW, but also not by a lot here.  We're really splitting hairs at this level.  I only called this review mid-fi because of the prices.  I think Hi-Fi is anything that competently covers the frequency spectrum.  That really hasn't been a problem after 1995 when THX systems started becoming the norm in households.  IMO, hi-fi can be had for $100.  What we're really talking about is preferred EQ levels and soundstage.  That has nothing to do with how much "money" the companies put into their phones for R&D.
 
With regard to the omission of Grado, AKG, AT your suspicions are correct.  I have no interest in cans that do not at least match or exceed the HD-650 at the 10Hz - 100Hz levels.  I'll try to write a little something when the AH-D5000 comes in.  Check out AJReynol's post if you haven't already. 
 
 
 
Quote:

Sugarkang, if I am not mistaken you just bought a d5000, congrats and I am really looking forward to what you think of them.  Maybe you can even include it in your current comparison although maybe it's not mid fi ish.  I rather see it here since I find comparisons more helpful rather then straight up review since I get better frame of reference.
 
Also I wish you could include mid fi headphones from the other big boys, personally from Grado, AKG, Audio Technica.  Although I know bass is very important to you and that itself may have you not bother consider them. Yes plenty had been said about them and there are plenty of impressions around, but not so with your philosophy.  I find it very fresh.  Keep up the good work. 

 

[sugarkang]

I just boxed and taped up my DT-880.  Going to Amazon tomorrow.  If I get some time, I'll maybe try and get the Denon to match the HD-650.  Can't promise because it's a total pain in the butt to do and It's not high on my priority list because I'm not interested in the "default" HD-650 sound. 

 
Quote:

Hi sugarkang, can you provide a EQ to make the D5000/D2000 sound like HD650 and DT8800?

 

[windcar]

In terms of clarity, details and separation, how will you rank the D2000, DT880 and HD650?

 

[sugarkang]

Those are hard terms to use for a ranking.  I gave my rankings toward the end of my still incomplete review.  Clarity and details could just mean + / - treble, stuffed tissue in the cups, too much bass clouding the highs.  It means different things to people, so I can't comment on it.  I tried to write my review in a way that was easily testable and verifiable for anyone reading it and leave the "fancy" adjectives out because it doesn't help anyone except sales for headphone companies.
 
For separation, if you mean whether it sounds like the instruments are placed in different areas, the HD-650 is not as good as the other two.  The HD-650 sounds like you're watching / hearing the concert from the middle of the concert hall.  That gives the impression that the soundstage is huge.  It isn't.  Because the cups are deeper than the other two, the sonic frequencies all kind of mash together before they reach you.  How shall I put this... it's like crossfeed is happening on each channel by itself.  While crossfeed is great for 1960s sources, like the Beatles, when stereo was first invented, most of the time crossfeed is not only unnecessary, but detract from music enjoyment.  In the 1960s, you had entire instruments or voices be either all on the left or all on the right.  That is super fatiguing.  Nobody does that anymore, so crossfeed is less useful as time progresses.  So in essence, crossfeed is a "mono" making effect, away from stereo imaging. 
 
If you have house speakers, you can tell right away.  If you sit close to your loudspeakers, you can hear instrument separation, but when you move away from the speaker, they all sound like they come from the same area.  That's how I feel about the Sennheiser HD-650.  You would think that would increase the soundstage though right?  It doesn't.  I think because the drivers are still ultimately only 1/4 inch away from your ears, it's not enough distance to create a larger soundstage.  I think the only illusion of big soundstage comes from being open air and when you listen to a live performance.  It really feels like you're there, but I believe it's just a physical illusion translating into a sonic one.  Don't get me wrong though, illusion or not, it's still a cool effect and I much prefer the feel of open phones. 
 
So anyway, separation.  I like the DT-880 over the rest by a little bit for rock music.  It's still my favorite rock headphone to date, but just barely over the others.  Always remember, these differences are really small to me, but commenting on them makes it seem like it's huge.  Umm.  The Denon makes the soundstage seem big because the bass is so deep, that it reminds me of being in a living room with hardwood floors, or a movie theater.  The Denon and DT-880 have little soundstage differences that are cool. 
 
HD-650 has a better resale value though, so I kept that. 
 
Panda Bear - Take Pills on the Denon AH-D2000 sounds like Brian Wilson singing on an elephant riding through India while there's a war going on in the background with bombs being dropped.  The HD-650, not as much. 

 

[monoethylene]

"LOL.  I have a very long review about it.  It is in my signature.  But the short story is that the HD-650 and DT-880 are almost identical (to my ears) after aggressive EQ.  I prefer the DT-880 for rock music a tiny, tiny bit.  The HD-650 has better bass by a tiny, tiny bit.  In the end, the sound score is the same for both, I think.  I paid a good, cheap price for the HD-650 but I paid a lot for the DT-880.  So I returned the 880 because I can get a full refund.  Maybe I will buy the 770 (again) instead?  Maybe the T1.  I don't know. "
 
You wrote that in another thread and this is a summary. After reading this yesterday (because it was too late in Germany ) I ask myself if aggressive EQ is the intention when buying a headphone. You have said that you sold your DT880's because of economical reasons and now you EQ the HD650 to sound similary? If doing so, me too, I can sell all my headphones and take an equalizer to have a pseudo DT990. IMO this is not the intention I think. Dont take this as an attack or something similar. I find it pretty kool if somebody makes a review and tells suggestions and probably solutions for headphones. So from this point, a big big congratulation!!
 
btw: I am hearing the whole day the DT440's as shown in another thread (actually I have posted a picture) and they are really outstanding for that price I have paid them..