[Ichos]

Have you seen Darko’s video? He compared the Empy with LCD4... well 4z actually.

No , I haven't seen this one.
Thanks.

 

[kkugel]

Here goes; very long, sorry.

The cable is X6 series palladium plated, 3 metres long, by Plussound.

First I have to say AB tests don't work for me. I call it a memory effect, very roughly like this. I found it in a couple of auditions in hifi shops so now I don't bother.
Hearing is all to do with brain processing and memory. At an AB session I typically hear little or no difference. I think my brain likes the stored A version, when it gets the B version it doesn't like that it's different, and possibly either processes it to be like A, or even replays A. The more I do AB, my brain likes A and reinforces it, then it dislikes B even more, has to work harder.
At that stage I think the brain gets tired and gives up, I don't enjoy the session.
If on the other hand I borrow the gear (I did that), just listen and don't do AB, the sound of the new gear definitely comes through.
Some people I know have this effect to some extent, my golden eared friends don't. It may not be quite right as a theory but it certainly fits my experiences.
Some implications:
ABX testing can work for some folks and fail totally for others, and people still argue about it! (Not here please)
OTOH, if you can fool the brain to think there is a change, it might rebuild its stored A version and guess what, you will hear differences that are not there. Familiar? Remember many years ago about putting bits of paper or foil under equipment legs? Or hanging wooden cones up? Some people thought they heard differences! Key word is 'thought'. their brains did produce differences.

So those of you who fail ABX tests need not beat yourselves up - it might mean you have better brains! And those who 'hear' differences that are not there, don't think yourselves gullible; it's just your brain playing tricks and it does that all the time.

So I don't trust AB tests at all myself, so I can't do a direct AB of Forza vs Plussound palladium.
What does work for me are two things.
I find I can trust the first 20 seconds of an audition, presumably before brain action kicks in; if that sounds good, it is good.
If I don't do AB, the new version will come through after a couple of listens and I can then compare it with the stored A version.
When tweaking a unit I've built, if it seems promising I build another the same and then change one thing at a time, live with it, then evaluate.
Having I hope explained why I won't do a direct AB, here is my evaluation.

After running in the palladium cable for a month, I took a couple of CDs I know well, had listened to just before I got the palladium cable and had not listened to while it was running in.
I took notes as I listened, still with the palladium cable.
Here are my notes on things that sound better, some things are now apparent but missing before (rare), mostly it's things that made me take notice.
I give them here exactly as scribbled at the time, no editing. Comments come later.

First, Lucky Lucy Ann; VSOP #6 CD. 1950s vocal, gentle jazz style. Recommended!
Track 1, Sitting in the Sun
Opening, brass is sweet, gentle piano on RHS more definite and further out to the side, additional light percussion
Rhythmic string bass, more variations, more definition to notes
Sax interval, more notes in the sequence, more rhythmic, more foot tap
Sax, more delicacy, some notes more extended, ending better
Guitar gently in background, appeared
Everything well separated, very musical, nice voice, more clarity. (One comment here, 'nice' voice is an understatement!!!!)

Track 3, I'm just a lucky so and so
piano better, simply more like a piano, percussive even though quiet, notes well separated
'Hello' sweet, a touch sexy. 'tree' extended
bass rhythms better defined, nice
sax, extra phrasing
different things seem to be more in time with each other rhythmically
Final 'so and so' is different, the final 'so' more extended. 'day is through' more real and live sounding.

Track 6, Makin Whoopee
hard to listen analytically, just enjoyable
voice very detailed and transparent, more to it, but not cold or analytical. words clearer. smooth but not over smoothed, very natural.

Generally similar comments to all tracks.

Next, Sophie Zelmani, Precious Burden. Good pop, mostly gentle, some good guitar work with a hint of heavy metal, in places slightly reminds me of Fleetwood Mac?
1st track, Leaving
At start, 2 sequences of a few seconds then one guitar note - wow, that note extra solid, fine tone to it
great tonality to guitar and all. Focus to the voice, really nice, delicate, extra subtleties

track 10, Curtain Fall
pure magic
breathy vocals, quiet delicate and full bodied and solid at the same time
character to the guitar, whine better, that slight heavy metal sound
I never knew this song was so good, fine tone, fine realism.
in middle, backing goes quiet, voice a whisper but solid at the same time.
gently brushed cymbals I didn't notice before.
bongos tuneful, percussive.
all spacious, wide imaging, instruments more solid and differentiated.
All adds up to spine tingly!

Athena, Breathe with Me
I didn't take notes, but I did notice the gorgeous vocals were even more gorgeous, a compelling listen.

Now more comments.
I did have a listen again with Forza - it's a very good cable, I *liked* it a lot. Differences are small, much smaller than the above words may suggest, it's mainly small shades of difference, a small difference of degree. But real.
No way should anyone with Forza feel in the least dissatisfied by all this, neither should any prospective buyer be put off; the Noir Hybrid is a superb cable, very enjoyable with the Empyrean due to its good detail without tipping up the frequency response, its excellent tonality and tonal balance, all adding up to a very enjoyable cable.

The main thing I like about the Plussound is that there is more definition, more there, but not by having a tipped up frequency response!
The extras are all there throughout the frequency range, and with all instruments.
The tonal balance is superb, not upset at all, and as far as I can tell, pretty much exactly as the Forza (and that is superb).
Things generally are more solid.
Note how a quiet voice can be gentle, delicate, sweet - and solid. Suggests better dynamics at all levels.

The above notes are analytical but do mention sweet and spine tingly; I must mention these things again because they matter. Not sweet by being rolled off, it's all there, detailed, solid, but without any trace of hardness or over emphasis.
Just lovely, very real sounding, highly enjoyable.

OK, expensive. But if you heard this without knowing what, and I told you the change was from a £2000 amp to a £4000 one, you'd believe it and think it worthwhile.

This cable was a normal purchase and I have had no favour from the maker and expect none!

In reading this, remember (though I say it myself) this is a very decent system. At present I use a Lector digicode dac (among the very best), sometimes I use an ANK DAC 4.1x (related to Audionote); interconnect is the absolutely superb High Fidelity Cables CT-1 Ultimate; the amp is a very good DIY job of mine. I have no idea what results would be in different systems.

Man if you have to do this much mental gymnastics to devalue AB test, it might just be that the cables sound the same and your brain is trying to justify the purchase.

 

[Kammerat Rebekka]

Get a replacement cable if the stock one is a) defective b) bothersome c) microphonic d) too short/long.
Getting a replacement cable in order to get better soundquality is like painting the glove compartment yellow in order to get a faster car. Use your money where it counts.

 

[539465]

Getting a replacement cable in order to get better soundquality is like painting the glove compartment yellow in order to get a faster car. Use your money where it counts.

oh what? did you think I needed to write something here? No, just reposting this.

 

[Louisiana]

Getting a replacement cable in order to get better soundquality is like painting the glove compartment yellow in order to get a faster car. Use your money where it counts.

Some believe in cables, some not.
Some just like the feeling, of a "better" cable.
Empy Stock cable is stiff, and to my ears (!) it sounds bad.
I also spend some money in Audioquest cables, not because i believe they sound better, just because i like it.
FAW cable is best buck for the money!


PS:
I was in Denmark for vacation, and love your country so much.

 

[kkugel]

Some believe in cables, some not.
Some just like the feeling, of a "better" cable.
Empy Stock cable is stiff, and to my ears (!) it sounds bad.
I also spend some money in Audioquest cables, not because i believe they sound better, just because i like it.
FAW cable is best buck for the money!


PS:
I was in Denmark for vacation, and love your country so much.

Honestly a lot of audiophile stuff is just psychology, if you just like them better just go for it tho. I'm going to do an ABX test of the $69 FC3 dongle vs the $2500 Chord Hugo2 soon as I have the feeling the latters price is not justified.

 

[Louisiana]

Honestly a lot of audiophile stuff is just psychology, ...

Yes, of course, but if you fell better with it, it works
About ABX test, i'm totally agreed with Mike C:

First I have to say AB tests don't work for me. I call it a memory effect, very roughly like this. I found it in a couple of auditions in hifi shops so now I don't bother.
Hearing is all to do with brain processing and memory. At an AB session I typically hear little or no difference. I think my brain likes the stored A version, when it gets the B version it doesn't like that it's different, and possibly either processes it to be like A, or even replays A. The more I do AB, my brain likes A and reinforces it, then it dislikes B even more, has to work harder.

 

[Kammerat Rebekka]

Some believe in cables, some not.
Some just like the feeling, of a "better" cable.
Empy Stock cable is stiff, and to my ears (!) it sounds bad.
I also spend some money in Audioquest cables, not because i believe they sound better, just because i like it.
FAW cable is best buck for the money!


PS:
I was in Denmark for vacation, and love your country so much.

Hey I dig pretty cables as well I’ve got a friend who makes them for me at very reasonable prices. I’ve honestly never paid more than 50$ for a hand-made cable...which is my luck I guess.
I understand what you are saying and where you’re coming from regarding cables. If you’ve got the dough and somehow feel a cable can enhance your listening experience, by all means go for it. It’s just so rare these days to see common sense in this part of the forum with regards to cables that I almost feel bad for all the newbies out there. There are several threads supposedly about headphones on here where almost all traffic has to do with cables.
It just gets annoying after a while. Surreal almost. Like visiting a restaurant and having all this delicious food... yet the sole thing folks around you can talk about is how brilliant it would have tasted like if they’d had those incredible rhodium based forks from that obscure Russian cutlery service out of Moscow. ‘Those things just bring out the flavour of food in marvelous ways!’
Imagine being the cook....or indeed the musician.
The truth is that cables “sound” different because they look different and because people believe that they sound different. If you want the truth, then let your better half cover some cables in gaffa tape so as you can’t see or feel which is which..and then see if you can hear the same differences as you could back when you had visual help.

P.S. I’m glad you liked Denmark. Be sure to come back once all of this Toyota Corolla virus nonsense is over. We love having folks come by

 

[ThanatosVI]

Some believe in cables, some not

True, and some like myself change their mind after experiencing it.

Pretty much a year ago, I didn't believe that cables have a noteable impact on sound.

However due to the Aryas stock cable being waaay too short, I got myself a Norne Skraug.
Just for the comfort of the right length.

When I received it I was impressed by the remarkable difference it made to the sound as well.

Fast forward to today, I got the biggest Norne Flagship on order...

 

[Mike C]

Man if you have to do this much mental gymnastics to devalue AB test, it might just be that the cables sound the same and your brain is trying to justify the purchase.

Not devaluing an AB test as such, just explaining how it's awkward for me personally.
I did say that my golden eared friends don't have the same issue, and did say that such testing does work for some folks; I'm not knocking this method of testing.

Knowing what works for me personally to let the differences show up to me, I follow that process (as explained) and the differences do show up.

No, the cables do not sound the same, and the palladium is a definite improvement, with exact details given, and above all it's highly enjoyable.

Good point you make though about justifying a purchase, wanting it to sound better. But I refute this from experience.

I have made a number of purchases that didn't work out; after using them for a few days the differences came through and were negative, confirmed over a week or two, later parted with them. One was an AMR cd player, sweet but somehow a bit insubstantial, lacking some bite and dynamics. Another was the Resolution Opus 21, good rhythms and music, but a slight 'edge' to the sound that spoilt female vocals, just a touch of harshness.
Another was an Accuphase cd player, quite nice, good tone, but with a bit of delta/sigma softness (not quite the right word, but not as musical as R2R). All bought used so I could evaluate at leisure, really learn how they sound, and if not good, reject and sell on.
When I found the combination of R2R dac and full valve output stage, boy did I appreciate it; not wishful thinking.

So when I make a mistake, sometimes expensive, I come to recognise it, accept it, sell and move on. It works for me. No wishful thinking. No attempt to justify the purchase.

Also, as in my article, I did wait a day or two, try the Forza again, and so confirm the differences.

No way will I be selling the palladium! It really is this good.

Regards
Mike

 

[Newsee]

I understand what you are saying and where you’re coming from regarding cables....
It just gets annoying after a while. Surreal almost. Like visiting a restaurant and having all this delicious food... yet the sole thing folks around you can talk about is how brilliant it would have tasted like if they’d had those incredible rhodium based forks from that obscure Russian cutlery service out of Moscow. ‘Those things just bring out the flavour of food in marvelous ways!’
Imagine being the cook....or indeed the musician.

It sounds you are not too much in "gourmet eating". It does taste different. Imagine that Gault-Millau four toqe cook putting his soul in that veal creation with truffle seeing it thrown in front of you on worn tin plates with aluminium forks. Of course it depends what you eat, how you eat, and how hungry you are.

 

[bpiotrow13]

Some believe in cables, some not.
Some just like the feeling, of a "better" cable.
Empy Stock cable is stiff, and to my ears (!) it sounds bad.
I also spend some money in Audioquest cables, not because i believe they sound better, just because i like it.
FAW cable is best buck for the money!


PS:
I was in Denmark for vacation, and love your country so much.

Fully agree on FAW cables

 

[Mike C]

Use your money where it counts.

I do agree with just this part of your post. I'd say the source and amp are generally more important, and respond better to having money spent.

In my case, I'm lucky to say I already have things that count in terms of the CD source and amp.
And I sorted these out first before seriously looking into cables.
However, having got to where I am, I am happy that the palladium cable is using my money where it now counts.

To try to give some impressions of magnitude of changes, here goes .. personal impression, many will disagree, I respect that.

A very good transport (Pro-ject RS2T) made an audible difference, but less than Forza to palladium cable change
A moderate change to my amp (from one type of valve to another, not just tube rolling) made more difference than either the change to Forza, or the change from Forza to palladium, but I guess similar to the change from my first cables to palladium.
Tube rolling made definitely less difference than the Forza to palladium change.
The change from a delta/sigma solid state CD player to R2R valve output player was bigger than any of the above.

Which pretty much confirms the quoted part of Rebekka's post.

 

[Kammerat Rebekka]

It sounds you are not too much in "gourmet eating". It does taste different. Imagine that Gault-Millau four toqe cook putting his soul in that veal creation with truffle seeing it thrown in front of you on worn tin plates with aluminium forks. Of course it depends what you eat, how you eat, and how hungry you are.

I love food! Also the more gourmet-looking stuff. I love making it, eating it as well as feeding others. I do however concentrate on the food and the taste of the very same instead of focusing on the napkins

 

[Kammerat Rebekka]

I do agree with just this part of your post. I'd say the source and amp are generally more important, and respond better to having money spent.

In my case, I'm lucky to say I already have things that count in terms of the CD source and amp.
And I sorted these out first before seriously looking into cables.
However, having got to where I am, I am happy that the palladium cable is using my money where it now counts.

To try to give some impressions of magnitude of changes, here goes .. personal impression, many will disagree, I respect that.

A very good transport (Pro-ject RS2T) made an audible difference, but less than Forza to palladium cable change
A moderate change to my amp (from one type of valve to another, not just tube rolling) made more difference than either the change to Forza, or the change from Forza to palladium, but I guess similar to the change from my first cables to palladium.
Tube rolling made definitely less difference than the Forza to palladium change.
The change from a delta/sigma solid state CD player to R2R valve output player was bigger than any of the above.

Which pretty much confirms the quoted part of Rebekka's post.

Good for you. Like I mentioned earlier on, if you feel a cable or a dac/amp enrichens your listening experience, more power to you.
My post was more of an attempt of injecting some sense into a thread that rarely sees any of it...and also directed at folks who perhaps are curious about cables and their ‘effects’ on music.