OTL or hybrid?
Meze EMPYREAN - the First Isodynamic Hybrid Array Headphone
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saudio7
100+ Head-Fier
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The problem was only on very efficient headphones like Utopia. Regarding DAC and cables it all depends on the budget you have for it, then it will be easer to propose as the choice is really big.
bpiotrow13
1000+ Head-Fier
Thanks, Focal Utopia are really not so low impedance HPs - 80 oms. Meze are much lower with 32 oms and are dead silent.
I habe not thought about budget, around Eur 2000 max for new i would say.
I bought the empys today. I did not test them before buying, but I was pretty sure I would like them from my research and holy crap I was not wrong..They are so comfortable and love their pleasant sound! Some people have critiqued them for not having enough resolution. So I was a little afraid that they would just be a more "comfortable" version of my LCD2Cs, but they are many many steps above (resolution, soundstage, bass response etc etc) and of course comfort.
nwavesailor
Headphoneus Supremus
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Liquid Platinum pair nicely with the Empy.
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Swisstoni
Head-Fier
Hi
Just waiting for some balanced cables from CustomCans for my Empyreans. Hopefully coming this week. Currently using some cables I had made for my old LCD 2's from toxic cables. CustomCans use 84 strand litz copper and they give an explanation on why they like copper in the product description
https://customcans.co.uk/s/s/index.php/cables/audeze-cables/audeze-balanced-cable.html
Happy to let you know once received.
Regards
Matt
Here goes; very long, sorry.
The cable is X6 series palladium plated, 3 metres long, by Plussound.
First I have to say AB tests don't work for me. I call it a memory effect, very roughly like this. I found it in a couple of auditions in hifi shops so now I don't bother.
Hearing is all to do with brain processing and memory. At an AB session I typically hear little or no difference. I think my brain likes the stored A version, when it gets the B version it doesn't like that it's different, and possibly either processes it to be like A, or even replays A. The more I do AB, my brain likes A and reinforces it, then it dislikes B even more, has to work harder.
At that stage I think the brain gets tired and gives up, I don't enjoy the session.
If on the other hand I borrow the gear (I did that), just listen and don't do AB, the sound of the new gear definitely comes through.
Some people I know have this effect to some extent, my golden eared friends don't. It may not be quite right as a theory but it certainly fits my experiences.
Some implications:
ABX testing can work for some folks and fail totally for others, and people still argue about it! (Not here please)
OTOH, if you can fool the brain to think there is a change, it might rebuild its stored A version and guess what, you will hear differences that are not there. Familiar? Remember many years ago about putting bits of paper or foil under equipment legs? Or hanging wooden cones up? Some people thought they heard differences! Key word is 'thought'. their brains did produce differences.
So those of you who fail ABX tests need not beat yourselves up - it might mean you have better brains! And those who 'hear' differences that are not there, don't think yourselves gullible; it's just your brain playing tricks and it does that all the time.
So I don't trust AB tests at all myself, so I can't do a direct AB of Forza vs Plussound palladium.
What does work for me are two things.
I find I can trust the first 20 seconds of an audition, presumably before brain action kicks in; if that sounds good, it is good.
If I don't do AB, the new version will come through after a couple of listens and I can then compare it with the stored A version.
When tweaking a unit I've built, if it seems promising I build another the same and then change one thing at a time, live with it, then evaluate.
Having I hope explained why I won't do a direct AB, here is my evaluation.
After running in the palladium cable for a month, I took a couple of CDs I know well, had listened to just before I got the palladium cable and had not listened to while it was running in.
I took notes as I listened, still with the palladium cable.
Here are my notes on things that sound better, some things are now apparent but missing before (rare), mostly it's things that made me take notice.
I give them here exactly as scribbled at the time, no editing. Comments come later.
First, Lucky Lucy Ann; VSOP #6 CD. 1950s vocal, gentle jazz style. Recommended!
Track 1, Sitting in the Sun
Opening, brass is sweet, gentle piano on RHS more definite and further out to the side, additional light percussion
Rhythmic string bass, more variations, more definition to notes
Sax interval, more notes in the sequence, more rhythmic, more foot tap
Sax, more delicacy, some notes more extended, ending better
Guitar gently in background, appeared
Everything well separated, very musical, nice voice, more clarity. (One comment here, 'nice' voice is an understatement!!!!)
Track 3, I'm just a lucky so and so
piano better, simply more like a piano, percussive even though quiet, notes well separated
'Hello' sweet, a touch sexy. 'tree' extended
bass rhythms better defined, nice
sax, extra phrasing
different things seem to be more in time with each other rhythmically
Final 'so and so' is different, the final 'so' more extended. 'day is through' more real and live sounding.
Track 6, Makin Whoopee
hard to listen analytically, just enjoyable
voice very detailed and transparent, more to it, but not cold or analytical. words clearer. smooth but not over smoothed, very natural.
Generally similar comments to all tracks.
Next, Sophie Zelmani, Precious Burden. Good pop, mostly gentle, some good guitar work with a hint of heavy metal, in places slightly reminds me of Fleetwood Mac?
1st track, Leaving
At start, 2 sequences of a few seconds then one guitar note - wow, that note extra solid, fine tone to it
great tonality to guitar and all. Focus to the voice, really nice, delicate, extra subtleties
track 10, Curtain Fall
pure magic
breathy vocals, quiet delicate and full bodied and solid at the same time
character to the guitar, whine better, that slight heavy metal sound
I never knew this song was so good, fine tone, fine realism.
in middle, backing goes quiet, voice a whisper but solid at the same time.
gently brushed cymbals I didn't notice before.
bongos tuneful, percussive.
all spacious, wide imaging, instruments more solid and differentiated.
All adds up to spine tingly!
Athena, Breathe with Me
I didn't take notes, but I did notice the gorgeous vocals were even more gorgeous, a compelling listen.
Now more comments.
I did have a listen again with Forza - it's a very good cable, I *liked* it a lot. Differences are small, much smaller than the above words may suggest, it's mainly small shades of difference, a small difference of degree. But real.
No way should anyone with Forza feel in the least dissatisfied by all this, neither should any prospective buyer be put off; the Noir Hybrid is a superb cable, very enjoyable with the Empyrean due to its good detail without tipping up the frequency response, its excellent tonality and tonal balance, all adding up to a very enjoyable cable.
The main thing I like about the Plussound is that there is more definition, more there, but not by having a tipped up frequency response!
The extras are all there throughout the frequency range, and with all instruments.
The tonal balance is superb, not upset at all, and as far as I can tell, pretty much exactly as the Forza (and that is superb).
Things generally are more solid.
Note how a quiet voice can be gentle, delicate, sweet - and solid. Suggests better dynamics at all levels.
The above notes are analytical but do mention sweet and spine tingly; I must mention these things again because they matter. Not sweet by being rolled off, it's all there, detailed, solid, but without any trace of hardness or over emphasis.
Just lovely, very real sounding, highly enjoyable.
OK, expensive. But if you heard this without knowing what, and I told you the change was from a £2000 amp to a £4000 one, you'd believe it and think it worthwhile.
This cable was a normal purchase and I have had no favour from the maker and expect none!
In reading this, remember (though I say it myself) this is a very decent system. At present I use a Lector digicode dac (among the very best), sometimes I use an ANK DAC 4.1x (related to Audionote); interconnect is the absolutely superb High Fidelity Cables CT-1 Ultimate; the amp is a very good DIY job of mine. I have no idea what results would be in different systems.
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I've actually read all 581 pages of this thread! I currently have a pair of Audeze LCD-XC driven from a Chord Electronics Mojo+Poly and streaming all my music from Roon. I'm toying with the idea of upgrading to Empyrean + Chord Hugo 2 DAC & Chord 2Go streamer. I'm wondering if by any chance anyone is able to compare and contrast the Empys vs specifically the LCD-XC.
I really like my current setup so I'm wondering if I'd see a big enough jump in my listening experience to make such an upgrade worth while. I suppose it might well be a case of not knowing what I'm missing until I try something significantly better but if possible I'd like to get some idea of what to expect with reference to what I currently have since returning a load of stuff is such a hassle both for me and for the retailer so I really hate ending up in those situations.
The only thing I can put my finger on right now that I would like to improve is wider soundstage and there I think going open backed and possibly also using a low setting of the Hugo 2's crosstalk feature (which the Mojo doesn't have) would both contribute to giving me a more speaker-like listening experience. What I don't want to lose is any bass response and dynamics e.g. punchy and articulate basslines, real impact in the crack of a snare drum etc.
I suppose as another comparison when I purchased my LCD-XC we were not in lockdown so I was able to go into a store to audition stuff including the Focal Utopia which frankly I didn't like as much as the LCD-XC because it was just too thin and sterile for my taste but that was only on a single listening session so it is the LCD-XC comparison that I would be really interested in since that is the sound signature that I'm tuned into now.
I really like my current setup so I'm wondering if I'd see a big enough jump in my listening experience to make such an upgrade worth while. I suppose it might well be a case of not knowing what I'm missing until I try something significantly better but if possible I'd like to get some idea of what to expect with reference to what I currently have since returning a load of stuff is such a hassle both for me and for the retailer so I really hate ending up in those situations.
The only thing I can put my finger on right now that I would like to improve is wider soundstage and there I think going open backed and possibly also using a low setting of the Hugo 2's crosstalk feature (which the Mojo doesn't have) would both contribute to giving me a more speaker-like listening experience. What I don't want to lose is any bass response and dynamics e.g. punchy and articulate basslines, real impact in the crack of a snare drum etc.
I suppose as another comparison when I purchased my LCD-XC we were not in lockdown so I was able to go into a store to audition stuff including the Focal Utopia which frankly I didn't like as much as the LCD-XC because it was just too thin and sterile for my taste but that was only on a single listening session so it is the LCD-XC comparison that I would be really interested in since that is the sound signature that I'm tuned into now.
The LCD-XC's are really, really good closed headphones. They are wonderfully dynamic with crisp, snappy transients and very palpable bass. The Empyreans are also very good headphones but transients aren't sharp as the LCD-XC's. Their delivery is a little softer but it's not lacking any detail or clarity. The Empyrean's are warmer and more open sounding, but that is to be expected.The bass is just as deep as the LCD-XC's but not as impactful or taunt.
I'm not sure I wouldn't replace the LCD-XC's with an Empyrean, I would make the Empyrean's an addition to the LCD-XC's. That way you'll have one open and one closed headphone. I think their sound complements one another with the Empyrean's being the more musical headphone.
bpiotrow13
1000+ Head-Fier
Wow, thanks for this. At this level even a small upgrade may cost a fortune..Here goes; very long, sorry.
The cable is X6 series palladium plated, 3 metres long, by Plussound.
First I have to say AB tests don't work for me. I call it a memory effect, very roughly like this. I found it in a couple of auditions in hifi shops so now I don't bother.
Hearing is all to do with brain processing and memory. At an AB session I typically hear little or no difference. I think my brain likes the stored A version, when it gets the B version it doesn't like that it's different, and possibly either processes it to be like A, or even replays A. The more I do AB, my brain likes A and reinforces it, then it dislikes B even more, has to work harder.
At that stage I think the brain gets tired and gives up, I don't enjoy the session.
If on the other hand I borrow the gear (I did that), just listen and don't do AB, the sound of the new gear definitely comes through.
Some people I know have this effect to some extent, my golden eared friends don't. It may not be quite right as a theory but it certainly fits my experiences.
Some implications:
ABX testing can work for some folks and fail totally for others, and people still argue about it! (Not here please)
OTOH, if you can fool the brain to think there is a change, it might rebuild its stored A version and guess what, you will hear differences that are not there. Familiar? Remember many years ago about putting bits of paper or foil under equipment legs? Or hanging wooden cones up? Some people thought they heard differences! Key word is 'thought'. their brains did produce differences.
So those of you who fail ABX tests need not beat yourselves up - it might mean you have better brains! And those who 'hear' differences that are not there, don't think yourselves gullible; it's just your brain playing tricks and it does that all the time.
So I don't trust AB tests at all myself, so I can't do a direct AB of Forza vs Plussound palladium.
What does work for me are two things.
I find I can trust the first 20 seconds of an audition, presumably before brain action kicks in; if that sounds good, it is good.
If I don't do AB, the new version will come through after a couple of listens and I can then compare it with the stored A version.
When tweaking a unit I've built, if it seems promising I build another the same and then change one thing at a time, live with it, then evaluate.
Having I hope explained why I won't do a direct AB, here is my evaluation.
After running in the palladium cable for a month, I took a couple of CDs I know well, had listened to just before I got the palladium cable and had not listened to while it was running in.
I took notes as I listened, still with the palladium cable.
Here are my notes on things that sound better, some things are now apparent but missing before (rare), mostly it's things that made me take notice.
I give them here exactly as scribbled at the time, no editing. Comments come later.
First, Lucky Lucy Ann; VSOP #6 CD. 1950s vocal, gentle jazz style. Recommended!
Track 1, Sitting in the Sun
Opening, brass is sweet, gentle piano on RHS more definite and further out to the side, additional light percussion
Rhythmic string bass, more variations, more definition to notes
Sax interval, more notes in the sequence, more rhythmic, more foot tap
Sax, more delicacy, some notes more extended, ending better
Guitar gently in background, appeared
Everything well separated, very musical, nice voice, more clarity. (One comment here, 'nice' voice is an understatement!!!!)
Track 3, I'm just a lucky so and so
piano better, simply more like a piano, percussive even though quiet, notes well separated
'Hello' sweet, a touch sexy. 'tree' extended
bass rhythms better defined, nice
sax, extra phrasing
different things seem to be more in time with each other rhythmically
Final 'so and so' is different, the final 'so' more extended. 'day is through' more real and live sounding.
Track 6, Makin Whoopee
hard to listen analytically, just enjoyable
voice very detailed and transparent, more to it, but not cold or analytical. words clearer. smooth but not over smoothed, very natural.
Generally similar comments to all tracks.
Next, Sophie Zelmani, Precious Burden. Good pop, mostly gentle, some good guitar work with a hint of heavy metal, in places slightly reminds me of Fleetwood Mac?
1st track, Leaving
At start, 2 sequences of a few seconds then one guitar note - wow, that note extra solid, fine tone to it
great tonality to guitar and all. Focus to the voice, really nice, delicate, extra subtleties
track 10, Curtain Fall
pure magic
breathy vocals, quiet delicate and full bodied and solid at the same time
character to the guitar, whine better, that slight heavy metal sound
I never knew this song was so good, fine tone, fine realism.
in middle, backing goes quiet, voice a whisper but solid at the same time.
gently brushed cymbals I didn't notice before.
bongos tuneful, percussive.
all spacious, wide imaging, instruments more solid and differentiated.
All adds up to spine tingly!
Athena, Breathe with Me
I didn't take notes, but I did notice the gorgeous vocals were even more gorgeous, a compelling listen.
Now more comments.
I did have a listen again with Forza - it's a very good cable, I *liked* it a lot. Differences are small, much smaller than the above words may suggest, it's mainly small shades of difference, a small difference of degree. But real.
No way should anyone with Forza feel in the least dissatisfied by all this, neither should any prospective buyer be put off; the Noir Hybrid is a superb cable, very enjoyable with the Empyrean due to its good detail without tipping up the frequency response, its excellent tonality and tonal balance, all adding up to a very enjoyable cable.
The main thing I like about the Plussound is that there is more definition, more there, but not by having a tipped up frequency response!
The extras are all there throughout the frequency range, and with all instruments.
The tonal balance is superb, not upset at all, and as far as I can tell, pretty much exactly as the Forza (and that is superb).
Things generally are more solid.
Note how a quiet voice can be gentle, delicate, sweet - and solid. Suggests better dynamics at all levels.
The above notes are analytical but do mention sweet and spine tingly; I must mention these things again because they matter. Not sweet by being rolled off, it's all there, detailed, solid, but without any trace of hardness or over emphasis.
Just lovely, very real sounding, highly enjoyable.
OK, expensive. But if you heard this without knowing what, and I told you the change was from a £2000 amp to a £4000 one, you'd believe it and think it worthwhile.
This cable was a normal purchase and I have had no favour from the maker and expect none!
In reading this, remember (though I say it myself) this is a very decent system. At present I use a Lector digicode dac (among the very best), sometimes I use an ANK DAC 4.1x (related to Audionote); interconnect is the absolutely superb High Fidelity Cables CT-1 Ultimate; the amp is a very good DIY job of mine. I have no idea what results would be in different systems.
PrTv
100+ Head-Fier
I don't know if I'm qualified to comment on LCD-XC' sonic character, but I have LCD-X, and if I'm correct, LCD-X and XC share the same driver, but XC being closed back. I have auditioned the XC and X five years ago before I decided to buy the X. If memory serves me well, these two share similar sound signature but the X sounds more open/ whilst the XC has better bass and mid response.
Comparing the X and Empyrean, my finding is that... with my setup (in sig), Empyrean sounds superior to the X. Soundstage (headstage) is a lot better, so is treble details. Mid-bass of LCD-X hits harder, but IMO, the Empy is not far behind (Empy's bass goes lower though). Overall... I can't go back to LCD-X after having the Empy. I believe it is superior to the LCD-X in every aspect.
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Any comparison LCD4 vs Empyrean?
This thread has a lot of LCD-4 entries, an interesting one from the early times:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/mez...c-hybrid-array-headphone.871859/post-14640580
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