Master Clock Talk

[DACLadder]

My gut feel is the price/ performance of master clocks will improve in the immediate future. Wasn’t that long ago that we were connecting used 10Mhz cell phone tower oscillators directly to our equipment. Companies like LHY and Gustard will pressure clock vendors for better pricing and performance. For a while Mutec, Cybershaft, and Afterdark filled the performance gap at great cost. So my advice is get the best deal now and keep saving up for a better clock tomorrow. (Kingwa, are you listening?)

I will say this about the Ref 10 hardware. It is superior to the LHY clocks. Comparing AC filtering, risetimes, etc. But LHY is plenty good for now. Next year it will be something different!

 

[MartinWT]

If you're considering the Mutec MC-3+ USB remember that I sold mine for a Gustard U18. With AES output they have about the same performance. The secret, however, is the I2S output, which has a much higher level of performance and is better still with an external clock.

If you have a DAC with well implemented I2S input, like my X26 Pro, the relatively inexpensive U18 with an external clock (mine is an AfterDark Emperor Triple Crown) is a killer combination.

 

[FredA]

If you're considering the Mutec MC-3+ USB remember that I sold mine for a Gustard U18. With AES output they have about the same performance. The secret, however, is the I2S output, which has a much higher level of performance and is better still with an external clock.

If you have a DAC with well implemented I2S input, like my X26 Pro, the relatively inexpensive U18 with an external clock (mine is an AfterDark Emperor Triple Crown) is a killer combination.

Same here with the Eva, di20he and r7he mkii. Much more expensive though. The law of diminishing return should apply.

 

[tdx]

If you're considering the Mutec MC-3+ USB remember that I sold mine for a Gustard U18. With AES output they have about the same performance. The secret, however, is the I2S output, which has a much higher level of performance and is better still with an external clock.

If you have a DAC with well implemented I2S input, like my X26 Pro, the relatively inexpensive U18 with an external clock (mine is an AfterDark Emperor Triple Crown) is a killer combination.

My incoming DAC (Esoteric N-05XD) only takes USB and Ethernet inputs so I2S output of the Gustard wont work for me unfortunately.
My original plan was to have a 10M clock syncing the DAC and and an Etherregen and just stream my music via Ethernet.

However if the MC3+ USB makes the USB input better than streaming I would consider that too.

 

[Flyblues]

My incoming DAC (Esoteric N-05XD) only takes USB and Ethernet inputs so I2S output of the Gustard wont work for me unfortunately.
My original plan was to have a 10M clock syncing the DAC and and an Etherregen and just stream my music via Ethernet.

However if the MC3+ USB makes the USB input better than streaming I would consider that too.

I have the TEAC UD-701n, a derivative of the Esoteric N-05XD, and have connected the Gustard U-18 over SPDIF. There is quite a noticeable further improvement from an already very well performing UD-701n and can recommend this route without hesitation. I have not heard the MC3+.

An external Clock (TEAC CG-10M) is on its way that I will be connecting to my DAC(s) and DDC. I am quite interested if there will be further audible improvements after adding the Clock.

 

[tdx]

I have the TEAC UD-701n, a derivative of the Esoteric N-05XD, and have connected the Gustard U-18 over SPDIF. There is quite a noticeable further improvement from an already very well performing UD-701n and can recommend this route without hesitation. I have not heard the MC3+.

An external Clock (TEAC CG-10M) is on its way that I will be connecting to my DAC(s) and DDC. I am quite interested if there will be further audible improvements after adding the Clock.

Thank you that is very interesting. For some reason i always thought SPDIF would limit the SQ and the bitrates available to the DAC. Maybe Im wrong on this.

 

[sajunky]

Thank you that is very interesting. For some reason i always thought SPDIF would limit the SQ and the bitrates available to the DAC. Maybe Im wrong on this.

If you sync both devices (S/PDIF source and a receiver) with external clock the only limitation is bitrate, not a sound quality. It is a 'pro' use.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

My incoming DAC (Esoteric N-05XD) only takes USB and Ethernet inputs so I2S output of the Gustard wont work for me unfortunately.
My original plan was to have a 10M clock syncing the DAC and and an Etherregen and just stream my music via Ethernet.

However if the MC3+ USB makes the USB input better than streaming I would consider that too.

MC-3+ USB reclocks all inputs and connectivity is very good. With the latest DI-20 firmware, coax S/PDIF out of a bluesound is finally as good as USB from foobar2000 and the Tidal desktop app.

But be aware, the MC-3+ USB does not do native DSD, it converts to PCM.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Thank you for confirming. Also someone mentioned above adding the Mutec MC 3+USB to the chain. I havent really looked into this, is it just a DDC? Im planning to go ethernet only streaming to my DAC, would I benefit in any way from this?

It reclocks all inputs and has very good connectivity. And the REF10 was designed to work with it.

I have 3 pieces of Mutec gear and I recommend the company and products highly.

 

[JaMo]

But be aware, the MC-3+ USB does not do native DSD, it converts to PCM.

Yes, it is true. But worth mentioning is that this conversion is done with highest possible sound quality. Maximum PCM sample rate is 24-176.4.
I use this to feed my TDA1541AS2 dac via AES/EBU. The TDA dacchip cannot handle DSD so this is a very good set up to get highest level of sound
/Jan

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Yes, it is true. But worth mentioning is that this conversion is done with highest possible sound quality. Maximum PCM sample rate is 24-176.4.
I use this to feed my TDA1541AS2 dac via AES/EBU. The TDA dacchip cannot handle DSD so this is a very good set up to get highest level of sound
/Jan

I just wanted to point it out since I have several devices that do native DSD and this one does not; some people might want to factor it in to their decision.

 

[tdx]

It reclocks all inputs and has very good connectivity. And the REF10 was designed to work with it.

I have 3 pieces of Mutec gear and I recommend the company and products highly.

Thanks. However if I use streaming only (not USB) and use a REF10 to reclock both the Etherregen and the DAC (both take 10m clock input), would the MC3+ still be beneficial? Just trying to wrap my head around it.

 

[mgsu]

Thanks. However if I use streaming only (not USB) and use a REF10 to reclock both the Etherregen and the DAC (both take 10m clock input), would the MC3+ still be beneficial? Just trying to wrap my head around it.

If your DAC has a built in streamer, then the MC-3 would not make sense.
This does not mean that having an MC-3 USB in your chain feeding your DAC would not have better results.
Many report on the R26 DAC thread that ethernet is the better connection to the DAC. I, myself have the same dac and while the ethernet connection is good, i find Toslink and I2S from a DDC to be better. Keep in mind that i have a full spec Sotm switch in play and still prefer i2S from a DDC.
So depending on your DAC you have, MC-3 could be better or worse then ethernet.

I you ask me, i would go always for MC-3 when a Ref 10 clock is in play. Instead of MC-3 you can get the Singxer SU2 or Gustard U18, it has also 10MHz input and can handle higher sample rates and DSD. Which is better, i dont know. If you dont need the higher sample rate, i would play the safe card an go with MC-3. The MC-3 is already very good out of the box, but it can be tremendously improved by changing the built in SMPSU and soldering DC lines to the circuit board to be used with a LPSU.

A clocked DDC or MC-3 is the most important part in the chain. It takes care of the asynchronous USB signal feeded by the streamer, clocks it and outputs it as a synchronous signal over I2S, SPDIF, AES/EBU, Toslink that goes to the the DAC.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Thanks. However if I use streaming only (not USB) and use a REF10 to reclock both the Etherregen and the DAC (both take 10m clock input), would the MC3+ still be beneficial? Just trying to wrap my head around it.

Yes, since the MC-3+ USB reclocks all inputs. It can be used to convert S/PDIF to AES/EBU into your DAC for example.

If your DAC has a built in streamer, then the MC-3 would not make sense.

Why not? It reclocks and it can also be useful for format conversions (as above).

I you ask me, i would go always for MC-3 when a Ref 10 clock is in play. Instead of MC-3 you can get the Singxer SU2 or Gustard U18, it has also 10MHz input and can handle higher sample rates and DSD. Which is better, i dont know. If you dont need the higher sample rate, i would play the safe card an go with MC-3.

If you have an Audio-gd setup, the DI-20HE is the better DDC from a pure compatibility standpoint, and as you said, it supports IIS and higher rate PCM than the Mutec. But if you have a mixed bag and some pro gear, the MC-3+ USB is a good fit. I have both and can run with either or both in my setup.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

I should have said, I think if you have a new DAC it's a good idea to live with it six months to a year to really get to know it. Then add a DDC and wait again. Then a clock, etc.

If you buy all the best stuff at the same time, it will sound great but it will be hard to understand how the pieces work together and what the individual benefits are. And you might doubt that you needed all that gear.