[Ilja77]

 
And how does the Lynx Hilo sound? In which direction?

 
It sounds very openly, in all frequency diapason, you hear much details like on studio, cause of it is professional device, for working with audio. And all frequency response is very equal without any coloration.

 

[2leftears]

 
Yes, fully agree with you. With "dedicated headphone amp using discrete components", they simply mean just no op-amps. They use exactly the same speaker output, attenuated with resistor for headphones. Which is basically like using Ferrari as a family car, with a gear shift blocked into the first gear.

 
Not quite correct I am afraid.  The PM6005 (like many other Marantz products) uses a dedicated headphone amplifier.  It is not the power amp's output fed through a resistor.  And they are employing opamps for this (one of Marantz' HDAM opamps, which is a discrete opamp as opposed to an integrated opamp).  Opamps are simply high gain differential amplifiers, which are mostly integrated ones (such as e.g. an NE5534) and probably the type you are thinking about, but discrete ones most certainly exist (Marantz HDAM, New Class D DEXA, Burson, etc.)
 
Discrete ones can be better, as they can be tuned to the application in which they are employed in terms of gain-bandwith / noise characteristics etc., but they have drawbacks as well such as poorer drift characteristics with temperature change for example.
 
Where the HD-DAC1 differs is that this discrete opamp-based architecture employs zero global feedback (only the opamp section employs feedback), and the opamp drives a very much beefed up power output section capable of driving <most> headphones.

 

[2leftears]

 
I am not quite sure, since I don't have HD-DAC1 (yet). But I assume, it would be quite an improvement as it has variable gain setting, matching different impedances.
PM6005 probably adds only a series resistor between the amplifier and the headphone jack, to protect it from short circuits and overloads. I am not sure for your amp, but have seen other Marantz amps with a resistor as high as 210 ohm. Which can poorly control HD650, damping factor being very low.

First my apologies DjBobby, I don't mean to pound on you personally at all, it just happens that you wrote a couple of things over the last couple of weeks I thought worth commenting on.  The issue of damping factor re. headphones being one of them.
 
The damping factor is much less of an issue with headphones than it is with speakers.  Speaker power amplifiers are much more difficult to construct with low output impedance, and as such their output impedance is relatively large compared to the typical 8 Ohm speaker impedance.  Couple this with the relatively large mechanical mass involved of the speaker diaphragm & voice coil, and damping factor matters indeed.
 
With headphones the diaphragm is relatively light weight, and the air loading itself imparts quite a bit of damping.  Furthermore, headphone impedance is usually higher and it is easy to construct a headphone amp with low impedance.
 
However, when something like a typical 120 Ohm resistor is incorporated in the headphone amp's output, what changes the characteristics of the headphone's sound is not so much a problem of damping factor where the amp is trying to keep control of a diaphragm that has a "resonant" mind of its own, but rather the fact that the headphone's impedance is far from flat over the bass register.  This means that the output impedance of the amp has a big impact on how much relative energy is dissipated in the various frequency bands below, say, 500Hz.
 
This why some headphones are designed to have their best tonal balance when driven from an industry standard 120Ohm output impedance (Beyerdynamic notably).  Now you may in fact prefer the sound when driven by a zero-ish output impedance (a very personal matter of taste), but this is nothing to do with damping factor and everything with the (very much non-flat) impedance characteristics of the headphone.
 
On top of that, I have a much more personal theory that damping factor matters even less with headphones because of the geometry of the magnetic gap & voice coil.  Most headphones linearize their electromagnetic response by having a long-throw voice coil that overhangs the magnetic gap substantially.  This means that of the 300 Ohm impedance of the HD650 e.g., only a 100 Ohm or so will ever be "active" and generate back EMF when vibrating.  The other 200 Ohm is hanging there as dead weight just adding to the overall circuit impedance which matters for calculating the damping factor.  You could almost consider it a 100 Ohm headphone with built-in 200 Ohm series resistance (the latter off course also having some minor inductance as suspended in air)

 

[hamidr]

PM6004 usese a couple of 330 ohmes in series and a protection relay between main amp and headphone jack.
And the sound quality is pretty bad compared to the CD6004 HP jack. I also can hear a slight hiss ans hum with 16 ohms IEMs...Even at zero volume!
The only benefit with resistor driven is they are virtually impedance free IMHO.

 

[DjBobby]

   
Not quite correct I am afraid.  The PM6005 (like many other Marantz products) uses a dedicated headphone amplifier.  It is not the power amp's output fed through a resistor.  And they are employing opamps for this (one of Marantz' HDAM opamps, which is a discrete opamp as opposed to an integrated opamp).  Opamps are simply high gain differential amplifiers, which are mostly integrated ones (such as e.g. an NE5534) and probably the type you are thinking about, but discrete ones most certainly exist (Marantz HDAM, New Class D DEXA, Burson, etc.)
 
Discrete ones can be better, as they can be tuned to the application in which they are employed in terms of gain-bandwith / noise characteristics etc., but they have drawbacks as well such as poorer drift characteristics with temperature change for example.
 
Where the HD-DAC1 differs is that this discrete opamp-based architecture employs zero global feedback (only the opamp section employs feedback), and the opamp drives a very much beefed up power output section capable of driving <most> headphones.

It's always interesting to have a profound discussion, getting new insights into some facts, as well into some very personal views. In my op-amp statement, I was obviously thinking about the kind of NE5532, OPA2604, TL072 etc., because Marantz talks about HDAM as discrete circuits. If you look into Marantz glossary: "

Marantz developed its own discrete circuit boards to replace standard IC's." So, if Marantz call them discrete circuits and not op-amps, it's  still a personal choice to call them whatever you like.
 

 
The damping factor is much less of an issue with headphones than it is with speakers.  Speaker power amplifiers are much more difficult to construct with low output impedance, and as such their output impedance is relatively large compared to the typical 8 Ohm speaker impedance.  Couple this with the relatively large mechanical mass involved of the speaker diaphragm & voice coil, and damping factor matters indeed.
 
With headphones the diaphragm is relatively light weight, and the air loading itself imparts quite a bit of damping.  Furthermore, headphone impedance is usually higher and it is easy to construct a headphone amp with low impedance.
 
However, when something like a typical 120 Ohm resistor is incorporated in the headphone amp's output, what changes the characteristics of the headphone's sound is not so much a problem of damping factor where the amp is trying to keep control of a diaphragm that has a "resonant" mind of its own, but rather the fact that the headphone's impedance is far from flat over the bass register.  This means that the output impedance of the amp has a big impact on how much relative energy is dissipated in the various frequency bands below, say, 500Hz.
 
This why some headphones are designed to have their best tonal balance when driven from an industry standard 120Ohm output impedance (Beyerdynamic notably).  Now you may in fact prefer the sound when driven by a zero-ish output impedance (a very personal matter of taste), but this is nothing to do with damping factor and everything with the (very much non-flat) impedance characteristics of the headphone.
 
On top of that, I have a much more personal theory that damping factor matters even less with headphones because of the geometry of the magnetic gap & voice coil.  Most headphones linearize their electromagnetic response by having a long-throw voice coil that overhangs the magnetic gap substantially.  This means that of the 300 Ohm impedance of the HD650 e.g., only a 100 Ohm or so will ever be "active" and generate back EMF when vibrating.  The other 200 Ohm is hanging there as dead weight just adding to the overall circuit impedance which matters for calculating the damping factor.  You could almost consider it a 100 Ohm headphone with built-in 200 Ohm series resistance (the latter off course also having some minor inductance as suspended in air)

In your second discussion, we agree at certain points, but also disagree in others, which is always good for a healthy discussion. While I fully agree with you that Beyers don't like zero-isn output impedance, neither do I, there are still two different qualities related to damping vs tonal balance. While with the Senns you could talk about the change in their tonal balance with different impedance, Beyers would literary react to overdamping. While you could describe Senns having bloated or leaner bass on different Z, with Beyers you would rather think about sounding dry, damped, over-damped, dead in the sub-bass region and sibilant in the treble, on the near zero-isn output impedance. 
 
Your second "personal theory" that the damping matters even less with only 100 Ohm of usable impedance and 200 Ohm hanging dead, would it mean that with the 600 Ohm Beyers, there are even 500 "dead" Ohms hanging out there? Are Beyers techs that stupid? Hmmm...If you have ever used more headphones in a parallel in a studio, you would have understood what the "dead hanging Ohms" are for. Putting 2 headphones in parallels halves the impedance. And in the studio there might be multiple headphones in parallel. 

 

[mkrzych]

I've tried several times hp output from my Marantz PM6004 amp which is connected straight to the amp section over the 330Ohm resistor. It sound ok, but indeed the sub-bass or even bass is somehow too much and muddy without the definition and the soundstage is also stretched a bit comparing to dedicated HPA. I've tried this with 250Ohm T90's.

 

[hamidr]

Yes its way too much bassy. They colored the main amp to make it suitable for speakers. You cant hear good sound via HP jack unless you turn the bass knob down for good -6 db.. BTW, the jack on the CD6004 sound good with my HD558s.

 

[Seamaster7]

hi, total newbie here. But i was wondering if i can hook hd-dac1 to my AT LP60 turntable. will this setup be workable with my m&d mh40s? 
 
thanks in advance

 

[DjBobby]

  hi, total newbie here. But i was wondering if i can hook hd-dac1 to my AT LP60 turntable. will this setup be workable with my m&d mh40s? 
 
thanks in advance

You mean probably in reverse, to hook AT LP60 to a hd-dac1? Yes, you can do that, only you would need an adapter. HD-DAC1 has only one audio input, 3,5mm rca jack.

 

[Seamaster7]

thank you so much replying so fast. Yeah you are right. I meant in reverse. like i said, total newbie. If i upgrade to the LP60usb, would i be able to use the usb out from the turntable to the usb input on the marantz? and would you suggest doing that? 
 
i can get rid of the lp60 easily as i have a friend on stand by for it.
 
Thank you.

 

[Seamaster7]

 
You mean probably in reverse, to hook AT LP60 to a hd-dac1? Yes, you can do that, only you would need an adapter. HD-DAC1 has only one audio input, 3,5mm rca jack.

thank you so much replying so fast. Yeah you are right. I meant in reverse. like i said, total newbie. If i upgrade to the LP60usb, would i be able to use the usb out from the turntable to the usb input on the marantz? and would you suggest doing that? 
 
i can get rid of the lp60 easily as i have a friend on stand by for it.
 
Thank you.

 

[DjBobby]

  thank you so much replying so fast. Yeah you are right. I meant in reverse. like i said, total newbie. If i upgrade to the LP60usb, would i be able to use the usb out from the turntable to the usb input on the marantz? and would you suggest doing that? 
 
i can get rid of the lp60 easily as i have a friend on stand by for it.
 
Thank you.

That should actually sound much better. USB sending digital to hd-dac1, where it is converted by much better quality dac chip.
Only first check, when possible, if hd-dac-1 can recognize LP60usb. I've tried bunch of flash drives with my other Marantz gear, and sometimes they were not recognized. Same formatting, all else same, but 1 out 10 would just not be readable. 

 

[Seamaster7]

 
That should actually sound much better. USB sending digital to hd-dac1, where it is converted by much better quality dac chip.
Only first check, when possible, if hd-dac-1 can recognize LP60usb. I've tried bunch of flash drives with my other Marantz gear, and sometimes they were not recognized. Same formatting, all else same, but 1 out 10 would just not be readable. 

You, sir, deserve a medal. Not all heroes wear capes. 
 
Cheers

 

[DjBobby]

  You, sir, deserve a medal. Not all heroes wear capes. 
 
Cheers

No medals here, maybe just a glass of wine. Cheers 

 

 

[PoSR77]

Just got mine today, over a month after I first posted itt contemplating it (told you I went slow with such decisions

). 
 
Liking/loving the sound (more on that later), but does this thing just hate Foobar? I can't go more than 3 minutes tops without a dropout/interruption in the sound. 

 Sometimes it pauses and then comes back, other times it's gone completely (the seek bar slider will even stop) and I have to restart the track. Sometimes it clicks when it does this and shows the 'unlocked' message, sometimes not. 
 
I've tried, under Output, under device, switching between the 'primary sound driver' as well as 'digital audio interface (Marantz USB Audio)'. I've also tried switching the bit rate/sample depth and looked in the manual. I've never had any problem like this with my old DacMagic...
 
Any help? This is driving me crazy: I'm just waiting for the music to be interrupted on every track and thus can't relax and enjoy the tunes!

 

 If this was covered before in here sorry.