Macworld Craziness
Jan 10, 2003 at 5:43 PM Post #31 of 79
Quote:

Originally posted by FrostyMMB
Also, I'm curious, what job can't be done a Mac?


With a Mac, noone pulls out your hair for you
very_evil_smiley.gif
 
Jan 10, 2003 at 5:45 PM Post #32 of 79
Instead of saying that Apple was on the brink of bankrupcy, how about saying that Apple was (is) on the brink of irrelevency?

Let's look back, shall we??
The time: 1996-7. Apple is experiencing rapidly declining market share, layoffs, specatularly failed products and ideas while PC sales grow.

But, Apple's got a ton of cash! Great!

So? What does that mean?? Means they have the ability to live on as a niche company without someone else buying them up. What's the point of having the cash if you don't have the courage or vision to USE it?!?!

Question: Why didn't they leverage that cash? Why didn't they decide to open up the Mac (yes, I know they started to, but then pulled back again)? Why didn't they continue to develop networking opportunities? They had Appletalk in the first Macs (demonstrating their understanding of the need for computers to work togehter in connected environments), and then KEPT it without really addressing it's shortcomings until MUUUCH later. Why didn't they use that cash to promote additional software development??? I know, they tried hard to court developers, but most folks decided to go the PC route. Why did they put themselves in the position of NEEDING Microsoft to develop an Office package???? They certainly had the money to develop the software on their own, yet chose not to do so.

The simple answers: hubris and greed.

From the begining of the Mac, Apple believed that their products were so superior to PCs that they could capture the market without really understanding it. They believed that their products were sooo superior, that people would pay a premium for them. And, many people (me included) did. Apple got used to a certain large % profit from each Mac sale. Then, they couldn't understand that the landscape had changed. They believed that their technology was soooo superior that they weren't really competing with Microsoft. Ooopppss! Turns out, they were. MS "assimilated" the look and feel of the Mac. Even so, how long did it take Windoze to even BEGIN to function as well as a basic Mac from 1988? How much time, money, and company energy did Apple spend defending it's "look and feel" in court, instead of demonstrating to the rest of the world how much superior their "look and feel" was?

There is no other way to look at what happened at Apple other than as a HUGE opportunity lost and huge marketing failure.

Early adopters: there WERE some companies that invested heavily in PCs in the early 1980s before Macs became available. But those companies were a minority of overall PC sales. They were the early adopters who would stand by their investment, unless something else better came along.

Question: As other folks jumped into the personal computer arena in the late 1980's, early 1990's, why did they choose PCs?

Most people and most companies started buying PCs, updgrading from one crappy version of DOS to another, eventually going with Windoze 3X, then 9X, 2000, and XP. So, yes, I think companies DID scrap their investments, they DID spend HUGE sums of money on new software, new hardware and new training. But, they spent it on PCs instead of Macs. Why? What would make someone buy inferior technology?

Answer: MARKETING!!!

Had Apple had any sort of marketing ability, they would have been able to capitalize on their software advantages.

(Question: Anyone remember "the" Superbowl ad from Apple???
'Nuff said.)

Instead, they did not read the marketplace properly, they did not market properly, they became a niche player who is now demonstrating the same marketing savvy that they've displayed in the past.

I'm writing this as someone who believes that Macs were (in many instances) superior products, who was an early Mac user (my first computer was a Mac 512 KE with a 20MB hard drive!!!).

I would dearly LOVE to be able to deploy Macs in my office. They have this wonderful habit of actually WORKING when you need them to. But I can't do it. Why? a.) the software the we in the poison center universe use doesn't function well on Macs; b.) almost all of the rest of the campus environment is PC based.

But, I'm also not so wrapped up in the "evangelical" Mac world to not notice that the company screwed up marketing their products and services... repeatedly.

Bruce
 
Jan 10, 2003 at 6:40 PM Post #33 of 79
Quote:

Originally posted by BDA_ABAT



But, I'm also not so wrapped up in the "evangelical" Mac world to not notice that the company screwed up marketing their products and services... repeatedly.

Bruce



That's all I'm saying too.
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Jan 10, 2003 at 6:57 PM Post #34 of 79
there isn't a version of exact audio copy for macintosh and that's enough for me. people hail itunes as such a great program, yet i think it's garbage in comparison to eac and a good mp3 player like winamp or foobar2000. it gets the job done, but i want/need options and itunes just doesn't have that.

mac makes a well-engineered product though. just walking around a local mac store gives me shivers with all the pretty stuff i instantly want because well, it's damn pretty. for me, when it comes down to it, i don't buy macintosh because of the money it costs in comparison to decent pc hardware. for the $2500 or whatever a g4 box costs, i could have a dual xeon with u320 scsi drives, and i just can't get that image out of my head.

anyway, i didn't mean for this thread to turn out to be a big mac/pc debate, but it's an interesting read anyway.
 
Jan 10, 2003 at 7:00 PM Post #35 of 79
What can't be done?
The reasons I still haven't jumped in:
No support for Solidworks (CAD modeling software)
No support for Maple...although they are working on it (a command line based math program used extensively in colleges)
 
Jan 10, 2003 at 8:12 PM Post #36 of 79
Quote:

Originally posted by BDA_ABAT
Instead of saying that Apple was on the brink of bankrupcy, how about saying that Apple was (is) on the brink of irrelevency?


Yeah, okay. Apple's products are copied, emulated, drooled over, discussed FAR more than their market share would indicate, evangelized, etc. They must be irrelevant. Quote:

What does that mean?? Means they have the ability to live on as a niche company without someone else buying them up. What's the point of having the cash if you don't have the courage or vision to USE it?!?!


By your definition, most computer manufacturers are niche companies, because they only have around 3-5% of the computer market. Micron, Gateway, etc. Apple is profitable. Yet you keep clinging to this idea that they've somehow failed. Quote:

Question: Why didn't they decide to open up the Mac (yes, I know they started to, but then pulled back again)?


Because if they wanted to fail and go bankrupt, the best way to do it would have been to "open up" the Mac, and NOT close it when they had the chance. Apple was not interested in becoming the company that started a mildly successful platform, then died when they couldn't compete with taiwanese import clones that could sell for far less than what they could sell their computers for. Remember what I said before? People will buy whatever hardware is CHEAPEST. Opening up the platform was a mistake, and if they hadn't closed up again, it would have been their death knell. Quote:

Why didn't they continue to develop networking opportunities? They had Appletalk in the first Macs (demonstrating their understanding of the need for computers to work togehter in connected environments), and then KEPT it without really addressing it's shortcomings until MUUUCH later.


WHAT shortcomings? Its only shortcoming is that it wasn't the protocol adopted by the fledgling internet. Microsoft's protocols weren't adopted either. Why aren't you whining about the failure of NetBEUI in the marketplace? Microsoft was just as slow to adopt TCP/IP across the board. Quote:

Why didn't they use that cash to promote additional software development??? I know, they tried hard to court developers, but most folks decided to go the PC route. Why did they put themselves in the position of NEEDING Microsoft to develop an Office package???? They certainly had the money to develop the software on their own, yet chose not to do so.


History lesson:

The first modern (GUI-based) office tools available for any platform were Microsoft Word and Excel, and they both came out (in GUI form) on the Mac FIRST. Remember, Wordperfect and Lotus 123 dominated the text-based DOS platform, but when Microsoft caught on that the Mac GUI was superior, and developed Windows, suddenly Microsoft had the dominant office tools on both platforms. Apple did write some really great software back then, (Filemaker and Clarisworks), but they weren't intended to compete with Office. Quote:

There is no other way to look at what happened at Apple other than as a HUGE opportunity lost and huge marketing failure.


The fact that so many people do look at it differently proves your statement false.
Quote:

Question: As other folks jumped into the personal computer arena in the late 1980's, early 1990's, why did they choose PCs?


I already answered this. Because people will almost always buy the cheapest hardware they can in the short term. Quote:

Most people and most companies started buying PCs, updgrading from one crappy version of DOS to another, eventually going with Windoze 3X, then 9X, 2000, and XP. So, yes, I think companies DID scrap their investments, they DID spend HUGE sums of money on new software, new hardware and new training. But, they spent it on PCs instead of Macs. Why? What would make someone buy inferior technology?


Short-sightedness, FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt), and the belief that going from one Microsoft product to another would be cheaper than going from one platform to another, whether it was actually true or not.

"Marketing" has little or nothing to do with it. "Marketing" is what gets an IT manager at a given company to switch from Compaq to Dell or from Gateway to IBM. But marketing is NOT what's going to switch a company from one platform to another. That can only happen if the morons with the purse strings think it will be cheaper in the SHORT TERM to do so, and it almost never is. Quote:

(Question: Anyone remember "the" Superbowl ad from Apple??? 'Nuff said.)


"'Nuff said' ????" You haven't said nearly enough about that ad. What's your point? Quote:

But, I'm also not so wrapped up in the "evangelical" Mac world to not notice that the company screwed up marketing their products and services... repeatedly.


Stick to poison control, or take some classes in business. Apple has never been anything other than a niche company, selling computers to people who were willing to pay a premium for a premium computer and OS. People with no understanding of the market will be crying that Apple has never marketed correctly even if they somehow capture 60% of the market. Because, why don't they have 80%? They make the very best mp3 player on the market, and people complain that it's too expensive to "dominate" the market. They make the best OS on the market, and people complain that it won't run on cheap-ass Crazy Achmed's House of Computerz pentium clones. Another "marketing" failure.

Why don't you complain that BMW, having failed to capture more than 4% of the auto market, has clearly been a marketing failure? Is it a marketing failure on BMW's part that they can't convince 50, 60, or 90% of the auto-buying public to buy their cars? Clearly, they make a superior automobile to Chevy or Ford. BMW must be irrelevant. They've made one bad business and marketing decision after another.

Either BMW, with 4% of the market, is a failure as Apple is, or both BMW and Apple, with 4% of their respective markets, innovative, superior products and good cash reserves (rather than the debts most companies hold) are strong, successful companies.
 
Jan 10, 2003 at 9:50 PM Post #37 of 79
Actually, the BMW comparrison is a little off.

BMW DID have other holdings and businesses (airplanes, heavy equipment, etc). That sorta got scrapped when the Germans lost WWII and they were forbidden from continuing in those areas. They were relegated to "just" making cars. Now, the company is looking earnestly for other business opportunities because they know that they are a niche company and need to do more than just sell cars to survive.

Appletalk shortcomings: I was referring to the basic performance shortcomings. Yes, NetBUI had shortcomings as well. That's not the point... NetBUI never dominated either. By bringing up the issue with Appletalk, I meant to demonstrate that Apple had the vision to recognize the importance of internetworking to include protocols and ports in their machines and code from the very begining. The problem is that they lost the opportunity to capitalize on that vision and continue to push for more stability and faster throughput throughout the life of the Mac. They had the money. They had the vision. And they eventually let Novell take over the market. Clear demonstration of market failure.

I'd disagree with your assertion that Apple always wanted to be a small, niche company. They saw the success of the Apple II and wanted to break the market open further with a new product that would be the computer for everyone. That's why they developed the Mac. They really did want to be a big company (when your stated goal is to be able to let everyone use your product, you are definately trying to be a BIG company), but they couldn't pull it off.

Russ wrote:
Quote:

"Marketing" has little or nothing to do with it. "Marketing" is what gets an IT manager at a given company to switch from Compaq to Dell or from Gateway to IBM. But marketing is NOT what's going to switch a company from one platform to another. That can only happen if the morons with the purse strings think it will be cheaper in the SHORT TERM to do so, and it almost never is.


Actually, if Apple had pushed and marketed their products appropriately to businesses in the mid to late 1980s, that would not be true. As it is today, you are correct.. the decisions are basically which PC vendor to go with. That's only because Apple has already lost the war and will likely continue to be just a niche company.

RE: the Mac ad during the SuperBowl... a classic example of Apple's woefull marketing. They spent HUGE sums of the available marketing budget on an ad that consciously and purposefully ridiculed corporate customers/users. Gee, I wonder why no Fortune 500 companies decided to switch over to using Apple products!

Those decisions affect the consumer market as well. If your work computer is a PC, there's a lot of pressure to buy a PC for home. Why should people have to learn two different operating systems? And, since most people use PCs at work, you can see how that might affect the buying decision of ordinary folks. Example: "I'd like to get that Mac for our home! It looks totally cool. But, we should get a PC for little Johnnie. I mean, we want him to be successfull. When he goes to get a job, are there any businesses that use Macs? It's going to be more helpful for him to have experience with a PC." Do you really believe this was a good marketing decision???

Bruce wrote
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no other way to look at what happened at Apple other than as a HUGE opportunity lost and huge marketing failure.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russ wrote:
The fact that so many people do look at it differently proves your statement false.

Actually, that proves nothing except that many people disagree. Large numbers of people used to believe that the earth was flat. They weren't right either despite their large numbers of believers.

I won't say that Apple totally failed (as in, they went out of business). They are still a niche company that has some very fanatical followers (by fanatical, read: can't or won't accept that Apple has ever messed up). They still have some very good products. But I WILL say that Apple failed to meet it's promise. I WILL say that Apple could right now have a very large chunk of the available PC market pie if they had made some different business decisions.

Here's the basic issue... the unifying theory that divides our perceptions.

You seem to believe that Apple is a hardware company first and software company second. So does Apple.

Apple REALLY is (and should be) a software company.

All the other arguments go away once you get down to this simple truth. The reason that Wintel is dominant despite having inferior products is that MS wanted to be a software company first. They let the hardware vendors get caught up in the price wars that chase hardware profits in an endless downward spiral.

Apple has failed to live up to it's promise because they clung (and still cling) to the idea that they were a hardware company that also made software.

I'll use your "history lesson" as an example: Word and Excel. The rest of the world was using text based software that was clearly inferior. Yes, I DO remember using Visicalc! How then did Apple NOT take advantage of this clear superiority of it's hardware and software in fundamental business applications? Clear example of market failure.

GUI: how did Apple NOT take advantage of this clear superiority in the basic operations of a personal computer? They let MS take over despite having a better product. In fact, it's more than that. MS didn't just pop up one day with a decent gui and start taking over the market. They had a TERRIBLE gui in their first several releases of Windows that took place over years. Apple's response? Let's SUE Microsoft for making a similar looking but poor example of our product. Do you REALLY think this was a good business decision? REALLY?!?! It's especially galling when you realize that Apple, ummm, acquired their GUI look and feel from an earlier Xerox PARC project!

Another clear example of a market and business failure.

There are a plethora of Apple software apps that did not get the support that they needed because Apple was confused about what it wanted to be. I'll also disagree with your assessment that Clarisworks (and Appleworks before it) were not aimed at competing with office products. They were THE standard, then MS took over and eventually did it better. Clear example of market failure.

What REALLY made the Mac a superior product? Was it because Apple used the best possible hardware? No. The reason Apple was successful with the Mac was because of the software that controlled the hardware. Yes, they used good hardware on their machines. But that's not the compelling reason most people use to buy a computer (there are exceptions that proove this rule... e.g., military). Most people buy a computer (or any other tool) because it can do things for you easier than could be done without one. If Apple had opened up the hardware and focused on the software, they would have dominated the personal computing market. It wouldn't matter that the "Taiwanese vendors" would be pushing low cost hardware onto the US market. That would have actually HELPED Apple in the same way it helped Microsoft and hurt companies like Gateway and Micron.

Bruce
 
Jan 10, 2003 at 10:00 PM Post #38 of 79
Apple is in a strange kind of limbo when it comes to the open/closed system, IMO.

On one hand, they make software. For software developers, an open system is best because there may be a million clone computers out there, but they all are running your software. More software sold leads to both market share and capital, along with a large group of users who depend on you to upgrade, but I'll get to that later.

Then, they also make and sell the hardware. For hardware, a closed system is best because you don't have to worry about cheap compitition, both for new systems and upgrades. Also you can direct the movement of the platform.

Now, let's think about buisnesses, because most comsumers will buy what they are familiar with and know how to use, hence what they have at work. Buisnesses want, no, require open platforms. With a closed platform, you can't get multiple bids for it, which is often requiered for large buisnesses, and you are also tied to that vender for upgrades and support. Most buisnesses have site licences for software, so having two computing systems is often a big waste of money.


I don't really know of another company that makes both the software and hardware. IBM tried with OS2 Warp, but that hasn't gotten very far. I think some of your specialty graphics computers run their own OSes, but nothing major.
 
Jan 10, 2003 at 10:39 PM Post #40 of 79
Quote:

Originally posted by morphsci
Not for science they don't. The problem is not the hardware but the (lack of) software to do the job. This is especially true for statistical software.


Which stat package would you like to use? All of these run on Macs:

Datadesk 6.1
Fathom
GraphPad InStat 3.0a
GraphPad Prism 3.0a
IDL 5.3
JMP 3.2.2 and 4.0.2
Mathematica 4.1
Matlab 5.2
mathStatica
SPSS 6.1.1; version 11 (works with OS X) due out soon
Stata 7.0
StatView 5.0.1
 
Jan 11, 2003 at 2:14 AM Post #41 of 79
Quote:

Originally posted by Russ Arcuri
Which stat package would you like to use? All of these run on Macs:

Datadesk 6.1
Fathom
GraphPad InStat 3.0a
GraphPad Prism 3.0a
IDL 5.3
JMP 3.2.2 and 4.0.2
Mathematica 4.1
Matlab 5.2
mathStatica
SPSS 6.1.1; version 11 (works with OS X) due out soon
Stata 7.0
StatView 5.0.1


Mathematica is for mathematical functions but not necessarily statistical. In any case the windows version is much ahead of the MAC version. (I already checked the functionality).

SAS 8.1 (need linear and generalized mixed models), S-Plus 6.1 and Matlab with both Image processing and signal processing toolkits.

The rest you listed are for those who want to use statistics, not those who know statistics. I would laugh but it does not even deserve that. Want to try again?

The problem is that for packages available on both systems the MAC release lag the Windows releases (sometimes by more than 2 years (SAS) and you simply cannot afford that lag if you are trying to stay up-to-date.
 
Jan 11, 2003 at 3:48 AM Post #42 of 79
So is that MAC as in Media Access Control or Mac as in the platform? And I love the never ending confusion between iPod and Ipod. The attention to detail is astounding.

As far as the EAC/iTunes being unsatisfying on the Mac, I'll disagree but then suggest Audion if iTunes isn't your bag. Audion rips and encodes well for me, and even through iTunes ripping and encoding is flawless through the encode with LAME script and the LAME package. As for playback you'd have to give some specifics as to which features features iTunes or Audion do not have that you must have.
 
Jan 11, 2003 at 6:17 AM Post #43 of 79
http://www.ping.be/satcp/eacoffsets00.htm#-

read that and then tell me that audition/itunes are great. with eac, i can burn with both read and write offsets for perfect copies. another great thing about eac is that you don't have to hack it to make it work with another decoder (i.e. ape, shn, flac, lame, whatever).

since you asked, winamp can use plugins (!) but more importantly: the mad decoder plugin, and the wave output plugin with ssrc (upsampling) built into it. foobar2000 also has these functions built into it, but uses a different and superior decoder (in my opinion).
 
Jan 11, 2003 at 8:06 AM Post #44 of 79
I won't argue the EAC stuff because I'm concerned with it, so I know nothing aout. In your case with your EAC, stick with what you like. What I do know is that I don't care about it. So I don't see any advantage you're claiming over either iTunes or Audion. I don't burn copies of CDs to listen to, and if I'm burning one for a friend I don't bother with trivial offsets, and I don't need any more exact-ness than making a Toast image and burning from it. I get no problems with ripping and encoding with LAME using either program. I hear no problems with either of the decoders and the differences are also trivial. If I need a plug-in for either program, they've both got the plug-in capability. Works very well and everything is as 'perfect' as I care it to be, so why should I suddenly think "Oh no, I AM missing something!" I won't.
 
Jan 11, 2003 at 8:28 AM Post #45 of 79
ian, you misread my question as "What program can't you run?" when that was not the question. CAD can be done on a Mac. CAS can be done on a Mac. That it doesn't support your program of choice is a great reason for not using a Mac for your job. Nontheless, the job can be done.
 

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