[tru blu]

Been messing around with Play a bit today, and the sound is considerably better than iTunes. There's a glitch, though: When I try to add AIFF files from iTunes to Play's library, it doesn't import the titles or any other info except the times and type of file ("AIFF"). The lossier formats (mp3s and AAC files from LPs I've digitized) seem to import just fine with all the info, which seems kinda silly to me. If someone can explain why that is or if there's a way around it I'm all ears, because the fidelity is pretty amazing. If Decibel sounds like this (but without that glitch) I'd actually consider purchasing it.

 

[bulmanxxi]

Never used Play but can't imagine they'd intentionally make Decibel worse...  Decibel is very nice... so are all the other ones but each has its differences and features

 

[MrQ]

Quote:

Been messing around with Play a bit today, and the sound is considerable better than iTunes. There's a glitch, though: When I try to add AIFF files from iTunes to Play's library, it doesn't import the titles or any other info except the times and type of file ("AIFF"). The lossier formats (mp3s and AAC files from LPs I've digitized) seem to import just fine with all the info, which seems kinda silly to me. If someone can explain why that is or if there's a way around it I'm all ears, because the fidelity is pretty amazing. If Decibel sounds like this (but without that glitch) I'd actually consider purchasing it.

 
That just happened to me when I downloaded it a couple of hour ago. First I dragged and dropped a playlist from iTunes and had no data except time and type. So pulled the files straight from the HD, no change.
 
Decibel, I can't seem to find the .app from the download?
 
 

 

[tru blu]

Quote:

Decibel, I can't seem to find the .app from the download?

Yeah, seems like that won't work for me, glitch or no. Like Audirvana, Decibel is only compatible with OS 10.6 and above. Guess I'm locked out…
 

 

[MrQ]

Quote:

Yeah, seems like that won't work for me, glitch or no. Like Audirvana, Decibel is only compatible with OS 10.6 and above. Guess I'm locked out…
 

I've got 10.6.6  Go figure?
 

 

[vert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrspeakers /img/forum/go_quote.gif

This is your opinion on Toslink, it's not a "fact," and you are in fact wrong in that Toslink jitter can be reduced just as well as USB, and many products exist to do this. 

The jitter from toslink from a computer is 1000ps+. You're telling me there's a DAC out there that can handle that without sound degradation? If so I'll buy it. If there were DACs out there that could handle that kind of jitter, Empirical Audio would no longer be in business with their Pace Car reclocker. The Naim DAC might be able to do it, but I'll believe it when I hear it.

 

[ajreynol]

wait, so Toslink (real glass, not plastic) is worse than USB?

 

[JIGF]

 
Quote:

wait, so Toslink (real glass, not plastic) is worse than USB?

Doubt it.
 
edit: Although I have not read any information about how jitter prone Toslink is.

 

[Eating Pie]

 
Quote:

I really liked Audirvana's sound too but still had issues with it.  Main thing is it doesn't do perfect gapless on my system.  I hear when tracks change.  It also forces midi to 24 bit.  So if you use it and then go back and try you other players, they may not sound as good as you remember.  Decibel sounds best in 16 bit on my system and I think it ends up sounding better than Audirvana in the end.  Audirvana sounds a little more open but I find myself enjoying my music and listening longer when I use Decibel.  It's also the only one I haven't have any bugs with.  Amarra is the worst, Fidelia doesn't even open anymore, Audivrana has occasional skips, and Pure Music acts weird if you play around with iTunes menu. 
 

 
I have found that all the players I've tested will skip at some point, depending on RAM availability and disk I/O at the time.  Even Decibel skips and stutters at times, which it actually should never do since it has loaded the whole song in RAM, and transfer to CoreAudio should be instantaneous.  Should be I says.... 

 
Quote:

Audirvana forces my MIDI to 32-bit, which totally messes up the audio for any other player and the system, and only a PRAM reset/restart fixes it.  There is still no search box for long playlists.  Otherwise, the developer is making regular updates so far...  Can't really say "trumps" the other player though.  They each sound good albeit perhaps just slightly different.

CoreAudio uses 32 bit floating point as its native format.  As stated earlier in the thread, it's up to the audio device driver to handle to conversion to 24 bit integer (native LPCM) for output via toslink or USB.  This conversion can be bit-perfect, and iTunes tests verify that Apple's driver is indeed bit-perfect over Toslink (and probably USB).
 
I checked the Audirvana source code, and it looks like you have to convert to 32 bit before passing the data to CoreAudio, even when dealing with 16 bit data.  So no matter what, you're transferring 32 bit float into Core Audio.  That's what makes the 24 bit / 32 bit settings so mysterious; where does that actually come in to play?
 
The other mystery is Audirvana's "Integer Mode."  Once again, Audirvana must transfer to CoreAudio using 32 bit floating point, so what exactly does "Integer Mode" mean?
 
-Pie

 

[Eating Pie]

 
Quote:

The jitter from toslink from a computer is 1000ps+. You're telling me there's a DAC out there that can handle that without sound degradation? If so I'll buy it. If there were DACs out there that could handle that kind of jitter, Empirical Audio would no longer be in business with their Pace Car reclocker. The Naim DAC might be able to do it, but I'll believe it when I hear it.

Where exactly do you get this number?  Jitter of that degree is compete destruction!  And I get fine output via toslink to my V-DAC.  You can even see a wave-form test earlier in the thread which demonstrates accurate output from the Mac's Toslink.  Heck, I have a HiFace USB to SPDIF reclocker, but I honestly can't tell a difference.
 
Now the question of Empirical Audio's business is a total non-sequiter here.  They would stay in business regardless because (a) their products may actually work and/or (b) audiophiles can be nuts some times (spoken from one nut to another!).
 
-Pie

 

[vert]

 
Quote:

Tested with the Esoteric D-07 . . . the TosLink output of my MacBook gave 1049ps p–p

 
John Atkinson, Stereophile Halide Bridge review.
 
I'm sure there are DACs out there that can reduce jitter to a certain amount, but when you're starting out with that much jitter, I have no doubt it will affect the sound via artifacts. Maybe the Naim DAC is different, and I'd like to hear it. Unfortunately, the higher end you go, the more you'll be able to hear it.
 
In regards to Empirical, I have had the Off Ramp and it is very low jitter. So much lower that there's really no comparison to straight toslink from the Mac.
 
In any case, I easily hear differences between Audirvana and Decibel. Everyone has a different opinion of course, and some people have told me iTunes sounds as good as the other players if you have SDD.

 

[Currawong]

1000ps = 1ns, fyi.
 
I'm liking Audirvana in hog+integer mode. Not sure why. I don't imagine that it is necessarily "bit perfect" but whatever it is doing is great, all the same.

 

[mrspeakers]

Quote:

The jitter from toslink from a computer is 1000ps+. You're telling me there's a DAC out there that can handle that without sound degradation? If so I'll buy it. If there were DACs out there that could handle that kind of jitter, Empirical Audio would no longer be in business with their Pace Car reclocker. The Naim DAC might be able to do it, but I'll believe it when I hear it.

Dude are you reading a thing I am saying?  What part of "re-clocking" isn't clear?  If you reclock, the jitter is reduced to whatever level the re-clocking circuit provides.  I've not said anything about raw Toslin without reclocking, have I? I am only talking about devices that reclock the Toslink.  The effect is measurable, provable, etc.  You can believe what you want, I'm done on this one, as your belief is out of line with facts and/or your not actually reading what I'm saying.  You are, as always, entitled to your beliefs, but not to your own facts...  

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Dude are you reading a thing I am saying?  What part of "re-clocking" isn't clear?  If you reclock, the jitter is reduced to whatever level the re-clocking circuit provides.  I've not said anything about raw Toslin without reclocking, have I? I am only talking about devices that reclock the Toslink.  The effect is measurable, provable, etc.  You can believe what you want, I'm done on this one, as your belief is out of line with facts and/or your not actually reading what I'm saying.  You are, as always, entitled to your beliefs, but not to your own facts...  

Easy does it my friend.  Perhaps your posts were misunderstood?
 
 

 

[IPodPJ]

Quote:

1000ps = 1ns, fyi.
 
I'm liking Audirvana in hog+integer mode. Not sure why. I don't imagine that it is necessarily "bit perfect" but whatever it is doing is great, all the same.

Give Decibel and Play a try.  You'll really like the sound quality, and a Mac Mini has the best stock optical output of any Mac.  Decibel uses 64-bit floating point operation, whereas Play is 32-bit.  They each have their upsides, but they both kill everything else out there in my opinion.  Amarra really doesn't even come close.  Unfortunately Decibel only gives you a 24 hour trial period, which is really weak.  I paid the $33 to buy it though since I am waiting for my modified Transporter to be repaired (which sounds better than any direct-from-computer digital output).  But if you don't mind the very poor user interfaces on these two programs and only care about sound quality then give them a try.  Play is free.