[darinf]

I just had a great conversation with Lorr from Smyth.He was extremely helpful. Great guy.
 
Anyway, he answered my multitude of questions.
 
Since I couldn't find a definitive answer about AIX online, here's the rates he quoted me:
 
AIX Studio rental for measurements:
 
$200 for their 5.1 system
$100 additional to set the room up for 7.1
$100 additional to do a measurement in their JBL THX 5.1 system.
 
Then, if you want Lorr there to do the actual measurements, he charges $200.
Overall, I think those are fairly reasonable prices especially since I am within driving distance from AIX.

 

[jcx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by darinf /img/forum/go_quote.gif
...
On another note, has anyone had any luck convincing any local high end audio stores to let you use their demo systems to calibrate your Realizer? I would think it's not in their best interest to let you use their gear knowing that you are not going to buy it. If you bought a Realizer at a high end store, did they let you use their systems for calibrations?
...

they are businesses, just like studios money should motivate them - I bet if you buy a 007 or 009 Stax rig, high end DAC/player from them for list they would let you calibrate with your Realizer against a few showroom setups
 
$100-200/hr sounds reasonable depending on time of day, if you're not interfering with normal store traffic or causing too much work supervising/changing the setups
 
 
it does introduce a rather new IP/ethics issue - the loudspeaker/amp/processor manufacturer's never anticipated that store demo setup's "sound" could be effectively "duplicated", some products may be there "on spec", not actually owned by the store, even the store's purchased stock is at the dealer wholesale price which includes the presumption that the dealer is trying to sell the product, not generate revenue from a single system
 
I would guess any interaction/resulting mention of high end amps/speakers by a Realizer user is worth it for the word of mouth advertising vs the relatively few people using the Realizer representing even fewer "lost sales"
although you have to suspect arguments that rely on "relatively few" doing it vs the situation when "everyone" does

 

[darinf]

Well, I ordered a Realiser today.  Hopefully it will be here within a week or so.
 
Has anyone ever tried using IEM's with the Realiser? I asked Lorr about it and he said it should work. With IEM's you don't need an HPEQ since there is no ear interaction with the headphones.
 
I have a pair of Etymotic ER-4S IEM's. I really like their sound so we'll see if they are good enough to get accurate sound from the Realiser. I am guessing Stax will work better though.
 
I also bought a used pair of Stax 407's and a 323 amp for about the same price as the Stax 2170 that is normally bundled with the Realiser. It should be interesting to compare the two.
 
I have also contacted some of the local hi fi stores to see what kind of reaction I get from asking about using their demo showrooms for calibrations. (There are no Smyth dealers in San Diego or I would have bought one from them.) I am not hopeful that anyone will actually respond, but it can't hurt to try. I was hoping that one of the stores might be interested enough in the technology to let me come in a demo the Realiser for them and make my PRIR's. We'll see...
 
Anyone near San Diego want to let me do a PRIR with their system? You could come do one with my system, but I only have a 2 channel setup in a very live, reflective room (not very good). It's all Cello gear though...

 

[arnaud]

I don't see how an iem can work because it will most likely have been tuned to some target curve (FF or DF) which means it should compensate for the fact it isn't being filtered by the outer ear.

So what you'll get is your own ear effect ( imprint PRIR ), plus whatever the artificial ear response the iem was tuned against. At the very least the tonal balance should sound off.

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

I don't see how an iem can work because it will most likely have been tuned to some target curve (FF or DF) which means it should compensate for the fact it isn't being filtered by the outer ear.
So what you'll get is your own ear effect ( imprint PRIR ), plus whatever the artificial ear response the iem was tuned against. At the very least the tonal balance should sound off.

Nope, IEM's, particularly custom IEM's work perfectly with the Realiser. 
 
In a nutshell, don't use an HPEQ file, use only PRIR when using IEM's.
 
An HPEQ compensates for how the outer ear effects incoming sound into your ears.
 
An IEM bypasses the outer ear, so no HPEQ is required.  A custom IEM has the most optimized driver placement.
 
The only caveat is the occlusion effect or "stuffy head" feel you get from your ears being plugged up and the noise isolating effect.  It can detract from the illusion of the virtual speakers.  But once you get used to it, it really makes for an even more magical effect.
 
I use my JH Audio JH-13's with my Realiser all the time. 
 
-Ed

 

[darinf]

Quote:

Nope, IEM's, particularly custom IEM's work perfectly with the Realiser. 
 
In a nutshell, don't use an HPEQ file, use only PRIR when using IEM's.
 
An HPEQ compensates for how the outer ear effects incoming sound into your ears.
 
An IEM bypasses the outer ear, so no HPEQ is required.  A custom IEM has the most optimized driver placement.
 
The only caveat is the occlusion effect or "stuffy head" feel you get from your ears being plugged up and the noise isolating effect.  It can detract from the illusion of the virtual speakers.  But once you get used to it, it really makes for an even more magical effect.
 
I use my JH Audio JH-13's with my Realiser all the time. 
 
-Ed

 
In addition to the HPEQ compensating for the affect of the outer ear on the sound to the inner ear, I also thought the HPEQ compensates for the sound signature of the headphones themselves. As Arnaud said, what if the IEM's have certain peaks in frequency response as most headphones do? I thought the HPEQ also compensated to correct the frequency response of the headphones to match the frequency response of the system you are measuring. I guess without an HPEQ, the Realiser could just assume that the headphones have a perfectly flat frequency response, which may or may not be true. Probably not as accurate as using over the ear headphones and having an HPEQ measurement.
 
I also hadn't thought about the "stuffy head" feel. That would be rather strange to have "ear plugs" in and yet still hear the virtual speakers in the room. But in the case of the Etymotic ER-4, the sound is very open and transparent even though my ears are "plugged". Maybe it will just sound like I am listening in a quite room.
 
Lorr did mention that having open headphones like the Stax works particularly well to help in the illusion of the sound coming from the speakers instead of the headphones. I can see how that would be the case when compared to IEMs or sealed headphones.
 
-Darin

 

[darinf]

Here's what Lorr said about IEM's (I assume he doesn't mind me sharing this with all of you.):
Quote:

IEMs work fine with the Realiser, or not, as a matter of personal preference. The HPEQ has two functions.  The first is to account for the interaction of the individual earcups with the individual pinnae.  The second is to linearize the headphones to an extent controllable by the user.  The first of these is irrelevant to IEMs since there are no earcups and no pinnae involved.  The second function is sacrificed with IEMs.  However, if you like the IEM response without the Realiser, you may well like it fine with the Realiser, hence the reports that using no HPEQ is OK. -Lorr

That's what I thought. Makes sense. I'll try to report back once I get my complete setup running.
 
-Darin

 

[arnaud]

Nice clarification darinf.

 

[Elysian]

How do you setup the Realiser not to use an HPEQ?  Can you just do a preset without a HPEQ assigned?

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

How do you setup the Realiser not to use an HPEQ?  Can you just do a preset without a HPEQ assigned?

PRIR files and HPEQ files are separate files and can be loaded independently from each other.  You have to load a PRIR, but an HPEQ can be optional.

 

[darinf]

In anticipation of receiving my Realiser, I was wondering the best way to hook everything up, especially the headphones/amp.
 
I plan on using a media player like the Western Digital WDTV Live as my source. I feed the output of that to the Realiser via HDMI.
 
Then the line out audio from the back of the Realiser to the Stax amp.
 
But my main question is where do you put the headphone amp? Do you put it near the equipment shelves/rack and then have a long enough headphone cord to reach to your listening position?
 
Or do you use long line level RCA cables from the Realiser and put the headphone amp near your listening position?
 
A long Stax headphone cable would probably be more expensive than long RCA audio cable. (Depending on how expensive your interconnect cables are, of course.)
 
Thanks,
-Darin

 

[dsperber]

Quote:

Originally Posted by darinf /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I plan on using a media player like the Western Digital WDTV Live as my source. I feed the output of that to the Realiser via HDMI.

 
I don't know that this will work.  The Realiser accepts HDMI input, but the source device must deliver "decoded multi-channel digital LPCM" format for the audio over that HDMI connection.  It cannot deliver still-encoded DTS/DD audio over that HDMI connection, as the Realiser does not contain any software to decode that still-encoded audio signal.
 
From what I can surmise, that WDTV device does not do this... unless I'm wrong.
 
Normally, BluRay players are the only standard source devices I've seen which do contain the ability to decode DTS/DD and deliver the decoded audio as digital LPCM out over HDMI.
 
 

Then the line out audio from the back of the Realiser to the Stax amp.

 
The L/R-stereo headphone output from the Realiser goes to the line-inputs of the Stax amp.
 
Or, you can inject an external DAC on this path.  Optical output from the Realiser goes to the optical input of the DAC, and then L/R-stereo RCA output from the DAC goes to the line-inputs of the Stax amp.  Or, if you have a better Stax amp and a better DAC, you can go L/R-stereo XLR output from the DAC to the XLR input of the better Stax amp.
 
 

But my main question is where do you put the headphone amp? Do you put it near the equipment shelves/rack and then have a long enough headphone cord to reach to your listening position?
 
Or do you use long line level RCA cables from the Realiser and put the headphone amp near your listening position?

 
Probably up to you.  I don't think there would be much difference either way.
 
In my case, I have the headphone amp near the rest of the equipment, which meant I had to buy a Stax "extension cord" to allow me to sit in my usual viewing/listening position and have the headphone cord+extension still be able to reach the amp.

 

[dsperber]

Quote:

Originally Posted by darinf /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
A long Stax headphone cable would probably be more expensive than long RCA audio cable. (Depending on how expensive your interconnect cables are, of course.)

 
It is true that the Stax "extension cords" are MUCH more expensive than a long RCA audio cable.  They come in two lengths, and two qualities.  But they run from $125 for the cheapest to $450 for the most expensive.

 

[darinf]

Quote:

From what I can surmise, that WDTV device does not do this... unless I'm wrong.

 
I have a WDTV Live. I think the latest release of the firmware supports up to 8 channels of multichannel LPCM audio via the HDMI output.
 
I am not sure what sampling rates are supported for each channel, I think it's 96/24bit PCM audio.
 
In any case, I can go into my setup menu and select Multichannel LPCM for HDMI output and I can select either 6 channels or 8 channels.
 
I have no way to test it until I get my Realiser. I don't have a 5.1 or 7.1 system.
 
-Darin

 

[madbull]

Quote:

 
I have a WDTV Live. I think the latest release of the firmware supports up to 8 channels of multichannel LPCM audio via the HDMI output.
 
I am not sure what sampling rates are supported for each channel, I think it's 96/24bit PCM audio.
 
In any case, I can go into my setup menu and select Multichannel LPCM for HDMI output and I can select either 6 channels or 8 channels.
 
I have no way to test it until I get my Realiser. I don't have a 5.1 or 7.1 system.
 
-Darin

 
If that works, that's probably what I'll be using too (I don't have a home theater also). Please keep us informed...