[jdog]

Well. I'm almost speechless after reading Gavin's post...  Although it's fair that he and Larry can work out any business agreement that they want, in my opinion, I think the way they have presented and proceeded with this Geek Wave campaign borders on unethical.  Anyone who read the initial Geek Wave story on Indiegogo (which appears to have been written by Gavin with technical support from Larry) would have easily assumed that LH Labs had a viable existing prototype and the purpose of the campaign was to finance the final R&D and to allow individual donors to add extras to base models to personalize the DAP to his/her own specifications.  Never is it mentioned anywhere in the original story that the Geek Wave was virtually starting from the drawing board; quite the contrary.  We even saw videos of people who were "blown away" after listening to something or other that was supposed to represent the Geek Wave... The Wave was always presented in the present tense (eg, The Geek Wave is a no-compromise portable DAP that will...blah, blah, blah), and donors were encouraged by "stretch goals" to perk and perk and perk....  It is still not clear how many of the "stretch goal" promises will actually be delivered with the final DAP.  Anyone remember Gavin's attempt to convince us that we would be happy with some sort of poly-plastic/resin-type casing made by 3D printer, despite the stretch goal promise of high-quality aluminum casing for X and XD models??   Then the 32 gb Geek Wave (you know, the lost-cost option for those who wanted to experience high-res music that was costing LH Labs more to produce than they were charging) just disappeared because there was no source for 32 gb memory; What??  I've since seen DAPs from other companies that have 32 gb internal storage, so it must have been a "transient shortage".  But the backers of the 32 gb Wave were essentially forced to upgrade (translation, pay more money) to stay in the game....  And all those poor folks who perked extra for Carbon fiber or titanium additions to the casing; as I recall, the last I heard, LH Labs was still trying to figure out a way to try to incorporate these extras into the casing.  Truth is, there is still no casing decided upon for any of the Waves, because the dimensions of the PCB still remain unknown....  And this is 18 months after the campaign closed and LH Labs to date has missed 4 (yes, four) of their own self-reported delivery dates.  A new delivery date has not even been estimated yet... Arguably, the Geek Wave is the most well-known and highly anticipated product that LH Labs has set out to develop for the general public so far; and it is the product that will most likely define the overall appeal and future of LH Labs to the general public.  To date, it is a major league mess and all we get from Larry is that it is a harder project to complete than he thought.  Good grief, Larry, were you out-innovated by Gavin???
 
 So, Gavin, you can continue to be super-proud of all the cool people you get to work with at Audioengine, but by any measure you choose, LH Labs is struggling badly with the Geek Wave.  Not only has the Geek Wave tarnished the image of LH Labs, but it has also put undue scrutiny on other companies that are trying to use crowd funding to develop/deliver products...  You may not see this as a problem; in fact you may see this as business as usual... I think many of the donors to the Geek Wave campaign see this as something completely different.  It would seem to me that an honest and ethical businessman would get together with his business partners and figure out solutions to the problems that remain with the Wave.  Granted, the Geek Wave may have some unique characteristics compared to competitors, but LH Labs is not building the first DAP on the planet.  I really hope Larry has access to some top quality audio engineers/consultants to help sort out his problems; he appears to be just treading water and I'm not sure he's even doing this very well....  I really don't think he needs a "marketing" specialist right now, but I can tell you, he's going to need a major-league marketing strategist to help resurrect the image of LH Labs once this product is finally (if ever) completed...  So, Gavin, you better start working on bringing in all your own "awsomeness" to help your kids' Uncle Larry...

 

[AlterSack]

There is not much I can add to this but - I must say after rereading this marketing BS from You, Gavin I feel offended and insulted. 
 
Do You really think that we backers are so stupid to ever again believe one single word that you write, mutter, say or express somehow?
*redacted due to bad taste from my side*
There may still be some that find any reason whatsoever for wanting to believe your words - I for one do not believe one f...ing word that You say anymore UNLESS YOU PROVE IT. 
 
You made a rigorously abusive use of the funding idea !

 

[Twjones]

Jdog - that was an excellent summary of the lowlights. I ponied up way back in May of 2014, when the target date for delivery was January 2015. I did so based on LH Labs' reputation (now seriously sullied) and the implicit message, as you aptly described, that the basic R&D was done - that the "prototype" was "awesome." I then perked up another $230 for an X128, mostly because I wanted an aluminum DAP. LHL, I fear, will make a much better business case for MBA students (the pros and cons of "crowdfunding" in consumer electronics) than they will a viable DAP for their backers.

 

[Lookin4Treble]

Well after the damage was done, now we need another "clarification". 
 
Why didn't you (Gavin) simply inform the LHL backers of this information earlier?  Instead, we have to discover for ourselves that you are marketing for another company?  What are we supposed to think?  Can't you see it from that point-of-view?  Your communications (or lack thereof) consistently lack the ability to predict the reaction of your audience.

 

[Larry Ho]

  Here are my thoughts on the matter. People come and go from companies every day, and it's not rare for those people to have been influential and highly valuable to their former employer. Sure, a few of the high profile employees have left LH since the first campaign launched, but they've also taken in numerous employees as a result of their growth. Casey and Gavin aren't the first big names to move on. Let's not forget names like Kim Kaplan and Steve Holt. When they felt their time at LH was done they left for other ventures.
 
My main question is this: Why would two employees, who happen to be the two most public faces of the group, departing over a period of several months indicate the collapse of an entire organization? They were the names we saw most often, sure, but they were far from the majority of the staff. Going over the recent updates it looks like Larry has taken over the communications role for the campaigns. I don't know if that's permanent or temporary, but either way he's indicated that they're moving along. And hell, we're getting updates much more regularly now. Isn't that a massive improvement over the months between updates we were subject to before? It sounds like Larry's team of trusted designers and engineers are continuing to develop the products even with Gavin stepping back to a board-only role.
 
We all want what we've backed, there's no denying that. However, I don't have enough evidence in front of my to entertain the idea that the walls of LH are crumbling around them. CEOs, CFOs, CTOs and many other key staff leave companies all the time and those companies often continue along their set paths without so much as a hiccup. Anyone who has donated to a campaign has become an investor in LH Labs/Light Harmonic. As an investor, I want to see them succeed and to have my investments return a profit. But I'm also an investor who is watching the companies and I expect them to show proof that they're working towards the completion of the products. I feel as though I've seen more evidence of that in the last few updates than I saw in the last quarter of 2015. That may not be the case, but that's how I perceive it.
 
tl;dr So what if Gavin moved on to another company? Larry and his team still knows how to engineer some amazing sound.

We are not a big company to have a lot of communication 'wall' between people worked here.  CxO is just the title to let people get the ball part job scope in nutshell. Not the really work flow and responsibilities. I'm not good at writing too much stuff. Allow me open up the work flow for our projects. Maybe that is the best way. 
 
For ME/Chassis design, we have one very senior ME for a long time, Juha, to work on DaVinci MK2, Vi DAC and so on. He recommends Brody joined us full time one year ago. And he is really sharp on Solid Works. After Kayla, as designer not ME, send out the design idea of Geek Wave long time ago. We made several prototypes and models according to her design. Gavin and I are checking the design from different point of view. I will check "do we have enough space" or "heat management" or "SNR"... And Gavin will check from market prospective. 
 
For PCB circuit design, it's me with other three engineers. Adrian is working on software part and we just got another new member working on that part too. We have three major iterations. The previous two's structure is not good enough. We tried the Android platform with our own customized software, the performance is not good enough. Technically, I have to admit we wasted the time twice for structure change. But the only reason for that is I don't want to settle on something that will be out dated or proven not ideal. And we settle on the third one which we shared with Geek Source from last year third quarter. . Now we use XMOS+iMX6+ some special IC to make the whole structure fast and stable. 
 
Analog and DAC part is really settled and stable for a long long time. So currently it will be me to do the final integration and sound touch for Geek Wave when digital front end is done.

 

[rcoleman1]

 
We are not a big company to have a lot of communication 'wall' between people worked here.  CxO is just the title to let people get the ball part job scope in nutshell. Not the really work flow and responsibilities. I'm not good at writing too much stuff. Allow me open up the work flow for our projects. Maybe that is the best way. 
 
For ME/Chassis design, we have one very senior ME for a long time, Juha, to work on DaVinci MK2, Vi DAC and so on. He recommends Brody joined us full time one year ago. And he is really sharp on Solid Works. After Kayla, as designer not ME, send out the design idea of Geek Wave long time ago. We made several prototypes and models according to her design. Gavin and I are checking the design from different point of view. I will check "do we have enough space" or "heat management" or "SNR"... And Gavin will check from market prospective. 
 
For PCB circuit design, it's me with other three engineers. Adrian is working on software part and we just got another new member working on that part too. We have three major iterations. The previous two's structure is not good enough. We tried the Android platform with our own customized software, the performance is not good enough. Technically, I have to admit we wasted the time twice for structure change. But the only reason for that is I don't want to settle on something that will be out dated or proven not ideal. And we settle on the third one which we shared with Geek Source from last year third quarter. . Now we use XMOS+iMX6+ some special IC to make the whole structure fast and stable. 
 
Analog and DAC part is really settled and stable for a long long time. So currently it will be me to do the final integration and sound touch for Geek Wave when digital front end is done.

 
Larry...in your own words...in reality what is the new estimated ETA for the Geek Source and the Geek Wave for the early backers?

 

[Larry Ho]

   
Larry...in your own words...in reality what is the new estimated ETA for the Geek Source and the Geek Wave for the early backers?

For Geek Source, We are waiting for the soldering for the last EP. PCBA factory told us need roughly 10 days. Even if we found some more bugs for that PCB, then we will only need to push back schedule for three more weeks to get R&D. Mechanical design as you could see in CES picture is done, software is in beta, and we could add more features via firmware upgrade.  So R&D will be on track to get it done by the end of March. April week 3 latest. Then we will start production. Ship to early backers first.
 
Geek Wave's overall process will be similar. But I would like to do it together on Indiegogo updates. (Because I got quite a few emails from friends who is not very active here. They don't like me to write here ONLY). Please understand.
 
Lets check all together with the campaigns we have before. First generation Geek Out, PCB done pretty on schedule, but production gave us the trouble and we found the solution. Delay for two to three months. Geek Out V2 is late a bit, but Geek Out V2+ original 3D print chassis design gave us the hard time to perfect. Finally we got the solution now.  Vi DAC and Vi Tube DAC is smoother. Little things here and there, but we managed to start shipping on time.  USB Cables 1G/2G and Geek LPS is better as well. But Geek Blue (Pulse Blue) gave me a hard time to make it sound right (although functional tests is done long time ago) 
 
Every product/project is really like a child for me and team. Geek Wave is definitely the one we want to make it right and really care. We learned a lot. When time comes, I would love to share more insights. Now should focus back to work.

 

[maczh2002]

"little things here and there, but we managed to start shipping on time"

You dont get to say that. Even the vi dacs which were set for september 2015 shipping only started shipping 3 months ago.

 

[gyx11]

 
For Geek Source, We are waiting for the soldering for the last EP. PCBA factory told us need roughly 10 days. Even if we found some more bugs for that PCB, then we will only need to push back schedule for three more weeks to get R&D. Mechanical design as you could see in CES picture is done, software is in beta, and we could add more features via firmware upgrade.  So R&D will be on track to get it done by the end of March. April week 3 latest. Then we will start production. Ship to early backers first.
 
Geek Wave's overall process will be similar. But I would like to do it together on Indiegogo updates. (Because I got quite a few emails from friends who is not very active here. They don't like me to write here ONLY). Please understand.
 
Lets check all together with the campaigns we have before. First generation Geek Out, PCB done pretty on schedule, but production gave us the trouble and we found the solution. Delay for two to three months. Geek Out V2 is late a bit, but Geek Out V2+ original 3D print chassis design gave us the hard time to perfect. Finally we got the solution now.  Vi DAC and Vi Tube DAC is smoother. Little things here and there, but we managed to start shipping on time.  USB Cables 1G/2G and Geek LPS is better as well. But Geek Blue (Pulse Blue) gave me a hard time to make it sound right (although functional tests is done long time ago) 
 
Every product/project is really like a child for me and team. Geek Wave is definitely the one we want to make it right and really care. We learned a lot. When time comes, I would love to share more insights. Now should focus back to work.

 
Larry, could you just directly answer his question with an actual date/ time period? Not the Source but the Wave.

 

[Shawnb]

Anyone ever hear anything about the so called Geek Market credits we were promised to get for every perk we backed in the last 50 hours?
 
Just checking though all the updates and I came across 
 
Geek Market Credit's 

Many of you racked up a serious amount of credits to use in our Geek Market during the last 50 hours or so in the campaign.  So many in fact, were still calculating your exact amounts.  Once we've finalized everyones credits, we'll send out individual emails with your totals and a link to our Geek Market allowing you to purchase products, upgrades and a multitude of other items from.  

Keep checking your inbox as we're going to have the Geek Market active and ready for you to take advantage of some truly epic deals in the next 15 days or earlier.  

That all for now folks, keep checking your inbox as we will be rolling out more updates over the next few weeks.  Once again, THANK YOU so much for making our dreams of a no compromise portable audio player become a reality.

 

I know I've never got no email or anything. Just another pledge promise I'll never see

 

[Shawnb]

 
For Geek Source, We are waiting for the soldering for the last EP. PCBA factory told us need roughly 10 days. Even if we found some more bugs for that PCB, then we will only need to push back schedule for three more weeks to get R&D. Mechanical design as you could see in CES picture is done, software is in beta, and we could add more features via firmware upgrade.  So R&D will be on track to get it done by the end of March. April week 3 latest. Then we will start production. Ship to early backers first.
 
Geek Wave's overall process will be similar. But I would like to do it together on Indiegogo updates. (Because I got quite a few emails from friends who is not very active here. They don't like me to write here ONLY). Please understand.
 
Lets check all together with the campaigns we have before. First generation Geek Out, PCB done pretty on schedule, but production gave us the trouble and we found the solution. Delay for two to three months. Geek Out V2 is late a bit, but Geek Out V2+ original 3D print chassis design gave us the hard time to perfect. Finally we got the solution now.  Vi DAC and Vi Tube DAC is smoother. Little things here and there, but we managed to start shipping on time.  USB Cables 1G/2G and Geek LPS is better as well. But Geek Blue (Pulse Blue) gave me a hard time to make it sound right (although functional tests is done long time ago) 
 
Every product/project is really like a child for me and team. Geek Wave is definitely the one we want to make it right and really care. We learned a lot. When time comes, I would love to share more insights. Now should focus back to work.

 
 
I love how this info changes, day to day and who you ask. I asked in a support ticket just 2 weeks ago and was told Source was on schedule yet now it's week 3 of April. 

 

[nudd]

I still don't have my lighspeed 2G which was supposed to come free with the Infinity.
 
Got the Infinity v1.0 though ...
 
Also does anyone know if the new DSD256 firmware works with the Infinity v1.0?

 

[marflao]

  Anyone ever hear anything about the so called Geek Market credits we were promised to get for every perk we backed in the last 50 hours?
 
Just checking though all the updates and I came across 
 
Geek Market Credit's 

Many of you racked up a serious amount of credits to use in our Geek Market during the last 50 hours or so in the campaign.  So many in fact, were still calculating your exact amounts.  Once we've finalized everyones credits, we'll send out individual emails with your totals and a link to our Geek Market allowing you to purchase products, upgrades and a multitude of other items from.  

Keep checking your inbox as we're going to have the Geek Market active and ready for you to take advantage of some truly epic deals in the next 15 days or earlier.  

That all for now folks, keep checking your inbox as we will be rolling out more updates over the next few weeks.  Once again, THANK YOU so much for making our dreams of a no compromise portable audio player become a reality.

 

I know I've never got no email or anything. Just another pledge promise I'll never see

Wow...you were really digging in your email, Shawn.
This "beauty" is from July 2014, right?
 
If I recall correctly I didn´t receive any mail, too,
 
But I contacted the Customer Happiness team directly and requested to convert my Loot points (remember them...we received them for inviting new "friends" to the "old..old...old" forum and for posting) to store credit.
While requesting this I also asked for the "amount of Loots" I received during the campaign.
 
Bottomline: Loots were converted into a voucher (including the added points which I "earned" during the campaign).

 

[Shawnb]

  Wow...you were really digging in your email, Shawn.
This "beauty" is from July 2014, right?
 
If I recall correctly I didn´t receive any mail, too,
 
But I contacted the Customer Happiness team directly and requested to convert my Loot points (remember them...we received them for inviting new "friends" to the "old..old...old" forum and for posting) to store credit.
While requesting this I also asked for the "amount of Loots" I received during the campaign.
 
Bottomline: Loots were converted into a voucher (including the added points which I "earned" during the campaign).

 
Thanks. I was digging around in the updates looking up info for the Geek Station and i saw that. I never heard a word from them and I should of got a decent amount of points. I just contacted support so we'll see where that goes and if I can even use it for anything useful. Would of been nice to have known of a voucher when we were getting the endless new perks and upgrades. So many headaches I stopped following the updates for awhile, specially since it was clear we weren't getting it anytime soon. Looking forward to hearing back from them on this.
Plus i just added up what i spent in the last 50 hours and it was a nice $1732. So I'm very interested in what points or credit I should of got.

 

[noshortcuts]

Larry Ho, I love that you are still dedicated to our prepaid products. I hate that LHL is so poorly run and organized that you are the main one taking the time to answer questions anymore. While you may be the only one most investors still trust, I'd rather know you could stay focused on products coming to market!