[musicheaven]

Interesting, I thought their arguments make no sense but I respect your opinion and theirs. So for you if you reply to your quotes, that makes you a person that argues for the pleasure of arguing?

 

[nudd]

Interesting, I thought their arguments make no sense but I respect your opinion and theirs. So for you if you reply to your quotes, that makes you a person that argues for the pleasure of arguing?

 
For me it is the context of the statements you are making. Jdog says from the publicly available information published as of 8 days ago that there doesn't seem to be a working integrated prototype and inviting LHL to correct him if he is wrong.
 
You then say that whatever we are saying is speculation and that this should be taken up with LHL privately.
 
I don't understand this. What has been said is absolutely substantiated by a publicly verifiable LHL  post. I am sure we all as backers would all universally be absolutely delighted if a working all in one prototype dev board showed up that had the power supply, the digital stage and the amp stage all designed and encased in a real world 3D printed chassis. 
 
This would be a major major super major milestone and something all backers would like to see. I don't know what else we can talk about on this forum other than what has been disclosed by the extremely patchy communications on LHL's side.
 
Let's say hypothetically Casey did answer jdog. This would surely be info we ALL as backers should know. Especially since the delays are supposedly because this is a crowd designed venture and not a crowd funded venture, to use LHL's terminology.
 
To make that distinction and then maintain radio silence as they have about features and progress just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. what they would have to say to answer any of jdog's questions I too am busting to know. 
 
There are a ton of things i would like to know too, has been asked and have never adequately been answered. here is an example:
 
Source backers and stream backers are getting a crap ton of free upgrades - eg, balanced outputs, switchable gain (effectively even the most basic stream backer is getting the iem mod for free PLUS balanced outputs). 
 
Will Wave 64 backers be left with an obsoleted and intentionally crippled version of the Geek Out v2 amp stage with neither of the above features? if so can we switch our backing to the GOv2+ or infinity? If not, then why do stream backers get such a free ride when original wave backers do not, especially then the amplification platform is now supposedly unified? 
 
Another example is when Casey seemed to be saying he hadn't lost the bet about Wave shipping by end July. He absolutely knew when he made that statement that a July ship date was impossible. Why not come clean at that point rather than make a facetious comment that July isn't over yet?!
 
Now why should I need to ask this question privately? Why should LHL cherry pick who they get to talk to and what questions to answer? How do we know they are not telling vips one thing and joe backer another thing? why should their answers not be given the same to everyone and exposed to public scrutiny? What is the point of this forum if not to ask questions and share information? LHL can chose to participate or not. If they chose not to participate when they have a known presence on this site that tells us something too.

 

[musicheaven]

For me it is the context of the statements you are making. Jdog says from the publicly available information published as of 8 days ago that there doesn't seem to be a working integrated prototype and inviting LHL to correct him if he is wrong.

You then say that whatever we are saying is speculation and that this should be taken up with LHL privately.

<<<<
@nudd all your points are valid however there are different ways to skin a cat. If jdog would have privately discussed the matter with Casey, what prevents him from sharing the conversation. If many people end up talking to them, we can all analyze that and draw our own conclusions on how truthful that is. Sometimes they are more willing to discuss the matter in private then in plain public view. If they don't answer ever then there isn't anything else to do but pack your bag and leave. Sometimes leaving is the only option.
>>>>

I don't understand this. What has been said is absolutely substantiated by a publicly verifiable LHL post. I am sure we all as backers would all universally be absolutely delighted if a working all in one prototype dev board showed up that had the power supply, the digital stage and the amp stage all designed and encased in a real world 3D printed chassis.

<<<< I am pretty sure their lab has some assembled prototype devices lying around if they know how to build products.
>>>>

This would be a major major super major milestone and something all backers would like to see. I don't know what else we can talk about on this forum other than what has been disclosed by the extremely patchy communications on LHL's side.

<<<<
Can't be in any better agreement than that.
>>>>

Let's say hypothetically Casey did answer jdog. This would surely be info we ALL as backers should know. Especially since the delays are supposedly because this is a crowd designed venture and not a crowd funded venture, to use LHL's terminology.

<<<<
Yes we all would like to know, it's the way to contact and delivery method that sometimes gets you an answer.
>>>>

To make that distinction and then maintain radio silence as they have about features and progress just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. what they would have to say to answer any of jdog's questions I too am busting to know.

<<<<
The LH Labs personnel are all working for the same entity and they won't release as much information because they have been burned and crucified for every decision they were trying to make not to mention the back lashing they have been going through and the punishment for trying to accommodate. I am not saying they are right but you have to admit that containing thousands of highly intelligent, knowledgeable and vocal backers is not an easy feet.
>>>>

There are a ton of things i would like to know too, has been asked and have never adequately been answered. here is an example:

Source backers and stream backers are getting a crap ton of free upgrades - eg, balanced outputs, switchable gain (effectively even the most basic stream backer is getting the iem mod for free PLUS balanced outputs).

Will Wave 64 backers be left with an obsoleted and intentionally crippled version of the Geek Out v2 amp stage with neither of the above features? if so can we switch our backing to the GOv2+ or infinity? If not, then why do stream backers get such a free ride when original wave backers do not, especially then the amplification platform is now supposedly unified?

<<<<
On the subject of unfairness, there are just no ways to please everyone in a highly competitive and fast moving field. Still to this day, I don't understand how a company can design devices based on crowd specifications, how the hell are you going to orchestrate that?
>>>>

Another example is when Casey seemed to be saying he hadn't lost the bet about Wave shipping by end July. He absolutely knew when he made that statement that a July ship date was impossible. Why not come clean at that point rather than make a facetious comment that July isn't over yet?!

Now why should I need to ask this question privately? Why should LHL cherry pick who they get to talk to and what questions to answer? How do we know they are not telling vips one thing and joe backer another thing? why should their answers not be given the same to everyone and exposed to public scrutiny? What is the point of this forum if not to ask questions and share information? LHL can chose to participate or not. If they chose not to participate when they have a known presence on this site that tells us something too.

<<<<
Casey taking a bet does not mean anything to anyone, he's been proving wrong predicting the future before, in all fairness who doesn't? Secondly Casey is not involved in the daily functions of the technical team so in essence you're not going to get much from him however he could still go out there and ask his bosses, that was my main point.
>>>>

The last point, a happy customer is a returning one and your future is your customer base, if they want to thrive, they'll have to deliver or else mass exodus and bankruptcy is sure to happen if they don't get sued first.

To conclude, their being late and constantly changing specs will get them to release products that are out of the gate obsolete so they have no other choices but to speed up their process and sometimes up the technical features if the don't want to be left behind.

So who wants a Wave?

 

[jdog]

@Musicheaven,
 
You have completely exhausted me..., and I can certainly see how you have amassed over 2800 posts on Head Fi.   Any comments I have made re: Geek Wave are now akin to an overly beaten, dead horse...  I guess we'll all have to agree to disagree on certain things.  But one thing we can all agree on is:  Either LH Labs has an independent, functioning prototype of the Geek Wave, or they don't... I'll try more directly to do us a favor here...
 
Casey Hartwell, if you are out there, can you please intervene and shed some light on this most basic issue?  We would all very much appreciate your valuable input.  I, for one, feel it might be more convenient for you to post one single answer to the masses, but if you feel more comfortable with answering individual PMs, I'll be happy to PM you instead.  Just let me know, and thank you in advance for your consideration. 

 

[doctorjazz]

I'd expect, if they did have a working prototype, they'd bring it to the next show they attend. If no one from LH gives an official answer, that would be pretty revealing in my opinion.

 

[musicheaven]

@jdog is that all? I better up my debate skills, I am loosing it.

 
No worries my friend, it makes the conversation more enlightened and enjoyable, sorry if it stresses you out.

 
Doc jazz, I am not going to report what the Wave InDemand closed campaign is displaying about the Wave and for that matter the Source in here but 12 days ago Gavin was pretty clear about where the Wave and the Source were standing. If you go read you would find out that there are still in development and that they are just getting out of technical challenges which the Go and V2 has helped surmounting but they still have additional ones to clear out, so it would be very unlikely to see a commercial Wave prototype out in time for shows, at least in a near future, I hope they prove me wrong. But a research lab version, they better have one available, how else will they be able to pair it with the Source prototype? I don't think they'd be in a position to display any boards with hanging displays. They do have an enclosure prototype they have showed, thanks to Kayla's gracious hands. We just have to be more patient which is the only ingredient that really works here and we shall see one showing up at the Audio show doors pretty soon.
 
I have high expectations for the Wave but being anxious and impatient will not do anything for me and will only increase my blood pressure, no need for that at the moment.

 Love those head-fi icons make me giggle sometimes.

 

[doctorjazz]

I'm in agreement, I try not to focus on LH stuff, expect I'll get it eventually, it'll sound fabulous when it comes, and who knows when that'll be. And, I don't expect they'll show a working version at the next show they attend either, but it would be great to be surprised. Not holding my breath, though, just enjoying my music through my other stuff (a Pono, which you can get at times at Frye's for $249, is working fine for me for now, thank you very much...)
And, an icon just to make you smile again! :happy_face1:

 

[bahorn]

Has it been determined whether the Wave will directly support streaming apps (e.g. Tidal)?  Or only by connecting with a smartphone?  Thx in advance.

 

[musicheaven]

doc jazz; Thanks doc that was funny. 

 
Quote:

  Has it been determined whether the Wave will directly support streaming apps (e.g. Tidal)?  Or only by connecting with a smartphone?  Thx in advance.

 
Larry mentioned at few occasions he was working on providing steaming support (Tidal) through Wi-Fi but I am not sure if he said that was for the Source or the Wave however he has said many times that the Source and Wave share common design circuits and implementations so that would most likely include it. I just don't remember if it will be on initial release or as a firmware update but he said it would eventually be supported, like the special streaming filter tweak in the V2+ Infinite, its design cousin.

 

[Lookin4Treble]

  Let's say hypothetically Casey did answer jdog. This would surely be info we ALL as backers should know. Especially since the delays are supposedly because this is a crowd designed venture and not a crowd funded venture, to use LHL's terminology.

 
Here's how jaded I've become about LHL.  It doesn't matter even if Casey DID answer directly/publicly; you couldn't trust it anyway. Every announcement or report from that marketing team comes with varying proportions of hype, spin, and deliberately overly-wishful thinking.  I want my Wave as much as anyone, but their comms are now white noise to me.

 

[Kamakahah]

Here's how jaded I've become about LHL.  It doesn't matter even if Casey DID answer directly/publicly; you couldn't trust it anyway. Every announcement or report from that marketing team comes with varying proportions of hype, spin, and deliberately overly-wishful thinking.  I want my Wave as much as anyone, but their comms are now white noise to me.

It seems a possible reason for the radio silence. No matter what they say it will be received poorly. Additionally, answering one question will just lead to a slew questions.

At this point I believe their focus is on making a product worth the wait. Nothing is going to calm the waves like people having a product in their hands.

To this point, I don't expect to see many answers coming our way.

 

[doublea71]

I think when there's so much time between a campaign launch and the finished product, the excitement wears off and reality sets in: backers have to wait longer than they expected to and the product developer has to finish what they started. Crowd sourcing makes everything a big pita.

 

[mandrake50]

It seems a possible reason for the radio silence. No matter what they say it will be received poorly. Additionally, answering one question will just lead to a slew questions.

At this point I believe their focus is on making a product worth the wait. Nothing is going to calm the waves like people having a product in their hands.

To this point, I don't expect to see many answers coming our way.

They have people working there that have nothing to do at all with R&D or production. They have folks like Casey... a Marketing guy IIRC, that undoubtedly has time to do a better job of communicating than what has been done.
I hardly think that the fear of getting more questions upon issuing communications is a valid reason for not doing so at all.
 
You are correct about the product in hand, but the next best thing, in the absence of that, is to receive regular and honest communications of the product's status.
 
One can come up with many reasons why they have done poorly in this area, but I do not believe that there is any justification for it.

 

[vrapan]

I think when there's so much time between a campaign launch and the finished product, the excitement wears off and reality sets in: backers have to wait longer than they expected to and the product developer has to finish what they started. Badly executed and managed crowd sourcing makes everything a big pita.

There fixed it for you

 

[doctorjazz]

I think when there's so much time between a campaign launch and the finished product, the excitement wears off and reality sets in: backers have to wait longer than they expected to and the product developer has to finish what they started. Badly executed and managed crowd sourcing makes everything a big pita.

There fixed it for you

That's probably true, at least in the public relations domain. There are crowdfunded and advance order threads here on Head Fi that are NEVER this contentious. I think it partly has to do with the gear not just being crowdfunded but, as they say, crowd designed...the discussions and changes seem to go on forever. Look at the Cavelli Liquid Carbon, or the 1946 ears threads on pre-orders (LC) and crowd funding. Never get the kind of bad feelings/hysteria/anger that I see in the threads related to LH Labs gear. They need to do a better job of keeping us in the loop (which doesn't mean a 6 month discussion on how large the screen should be...)
my $0.02, as a fairly large LH Labs supporter who's rooting for them...