LH Labs Geek Out v2+ Discussion Thread
Dec 21, 2015 at 5:58 PM Post #721 of 2,040
Single ended has 1/4 the power output of balanced. The 100 mW and 1000 mW specifications are both for the balanced output, just different gain.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/765527/lh-labs-geek-out-v2-discussion-thread/675#post_12146589

I don't think power output has anything to do with the sound either.

 
 
Message from LH LABS :
 
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Hello Frederic,

This is Matt from technical support, I have received your support case and will be further assisting you with any questions you may have regarding your product.

I apologize for the delayed response.

Here are the calculations for Single Ended and Balanced outputs for the Geek Out V2+ in "High" gain.

Single Ended:

32ohms: 0.125w --> 125mw

50ohms: 0.08w --> 80mw

300ohms: 0.013w --> 13mw

Balanced:

32 ohms: 0.5w --> 500mw

50ohms: 0.32w --> 320mw

300ohms: 0.053 --> 53mw

Hope this helps!

Matt

Ticket: https://support.lhlabs.com/helpdesk/tickets/18489
 
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If a set of headphones doesn't have the recommanded power it requires it will sound even crap. For example try to get a good sound from a 1000 Watt subwoofer with a 10 watts amp..........same here......100mw is for example way too low to drive my HA-SZ2000 which has 1500mw max input and requires that power to give the marvelous bass. So power output does make a difference in the sound !! Gain settings on amp are not just volume but also power delivered to cans
 
Dec 21, 2015 at 9:17 PM Post #722 of 2,040
Well yeah, I'm assuming the amp has enough power output from the get-go without clipping the input signal. A woofer needing 1000 W will require exactly that much. Of course a 10 W amp wouldn't cut it. If your headphones are listed as 1.5 W maximum and you're feeding them that much, I'm quite certain nothing good will come out of that because it's called a "maximum" input for a reason, not the "required" amount like in the case of the woofer as you mention. That's the point where your headphones will probably break.

Even if they were inefficient at 90 dBSPL/mW, 1.5 W would make it go to 120 dBSPL. I am 100% certain no one listens to music at those kind of volume levels, or else they'd be deaf; and you'd break your headphones for reasons explained above. >.>

Gain in audio is usually a voltage gain yes.


And I'll link these here again to demonstrate why power likely doesn't matter if it can get your headphones loud enough, which 12.5 mW at 32 Ω (low gain) should for the HA-SZ2000.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/765527/lh-labs-geek-out-v2-discussion-thread/675#post_12151947
http://www.head-fi.org/t/765527/lh-labs-geek-out-v2-discussion-thread/675#post_12149689
http://www.head-fi.org/t/765527/lh-labs-geek-out-v2-discussion-thread/705#post_12173045

A load on an amplifier only draws as much power as it needs. Whether the amplifier can output 12.5 mW or 125 W, your headphones will only require X. How good the amplifier sounds is likely entirely unrelated to power output per se. Saying a 125 W amplifier sounds better than a 12.5 mW one only because one is more powerful than the other makes zero sense because if you model the headphone as a 32 Ω resistor (this will only be the case for a planar magnetic headphone), and the headphone is playing at the same volume level (less than 105 dB SPL peaks for safe listening), both amplifiers will only output the power needed to reach that volume level because every headphone has a specific sensitivity rating. If a headphone is rated at 90 dB SPL/mW (and assuming it actually meets those specs), it will draw exactly 1 mW of power from the amplifier to reach 90 dB SPL, no more, no less. A more powerful amplifier is not going to do much per se other than make your headphones louder compared to the other at maximum volume since, as I said, the headphone only requires 1 mW of power.
 
Dec 22, 2015 at 6:11 AM Post #723 of 2,040
Well yeah, I'm assuming the amp has enough power output from the get-go without clipping the input signal. A woofer needing 1000 W will require exactly that much. Of course a 10 W amp wouldn't cut it. If your headphones are listed as 1.5 W maximum and you're feeding them that much, I'm quite certain nothing good will come out of that because it's called a "maximum" input for a reason, not the "required" amount like in the case of the woofer as you mention. That's the point where your headphones will probably break.

Even if they were inefficient at 90 dBSPL/mW, 1.5 W would make it go to 120 dBSPL. I am 100% certain no one listens to music at those kind of volume levels, or else they'd be deaf; and you'd break your headphones for reasons explained above. >.>

Gain in audio is usually a voltage gain yes.


And I'll link these here again to demonstrate why power likely doesn't matter if it can get your headphones loud enough, which 12.5 mW at 32 Ω (low gain) should for the HA-SZ2000.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/765527/lh-labs-geek-out-v2-discussion-thread/675#post_12151947
http://www.head-fi.org/t/765527/lh-labs-geek-out-v2-discussion-thread/675#post_12149689
http://www.head-fi.org/t/765527/lh-labs-geek-out-v2-discussion-thread/705#post_12173045

A load on an amplifier only draws as much power as it needs. Whether the amplifier can output 12.5 mW or 125 W, your headphones will only require X. How good the amplifier sounds is likely entirely unrelated to power output per se. Saying a 125 W amplifier sounds better than a 12.5 mW one only because one is more powerful than the other makes zero sense because if you model the headphone as a 32 Ω resistor (this will only be the case for a planar magnetic headphone), and the headphone is playing at the same volume level (less than 105 dB SPL peaks for safe listening), both amplifiers will only output the power needed to reach that volume level because every headphone has a specific sensitivity rating. If a headphone is rated at 90 dB SPL/mW (and assuming it actually meets those specs), it will draw exactly 1 mW of power from the amplifier to reach 90 dB SPL, no more, no less. A more powerful amplifier is not going to do much per se other than make your headphones louder compared to the other at maximum volume since, as I said, the headphone only requires 1 mW of power.

I prefer not debating........things are way different when it's about bass as it needs way more power........the SZ2000 for example are only 16 ohm but they do need massive power. Even if on the paper it could be driven well with a little fiio e6, in the reality things are different.......i didn't want to debate actually but i know lots of people read the forum and i just don't want some bassheads like me buy something that will not have enough power to drive their cans for big bass............hope they will read the basshead thread........
 
Dec 24, 2015 at 11:28 PM Post #729 of 2,040
Batch 5 here, but no email/date yet
 
Dec 30, 2015 at 1:39 PM Post #730 of 2,040
New case V2+ Infinity in the house! Impressions and comparisons to prototype to come. Cheers and Happy New Year

 
Dec 30, 2015 at 11:59 PM Post #732 of 2,040
Okay, have been playing with the V2+ Infinity in the new case for a while tonight and wanted to share some early impressions for those of you awaiting or considering this as a portable DAC/amp. My comments at this point will be mainly about the change in case, as detailed SQ impressions and comparisons will take a while. 
 
First of all lets jump to the $64,000 question - is the new case better than the old (prototype) 3D printed one? Oh, my goodness YES! While I applaud LHL's desire to use new technology in the application of high-temperature resin 3D printing, the first batch of V2+ cases were, well, pretty darn crappy, and looked a bit like a DIY project. The prototype unit I've had for a while now was one of the better versions, and it was still something that didn't inspire confidence or correlate with the SQ from Larry's circuit-wizardry. The writing on the old case, especially the part that labeled the sample rate lights and such was almost impossible to read, and on some units was impossible to read. And the cases were not all straight and/or flat, with the 3D printed plastic warping, mostly along the large flat planes of the front and back. Some looked like roller-coasters in the bumps and valleys, while the prototype unit I have just having a decent depression at one end of the front, near where the balanced plug is. For demonstration purposes here's a picture of the writing on the old case - sorry it's hard to capture it with a photo. 
 

 
Easy to read right? Nope! Also you can see some of the print lines from the 3D printer. Many were up in arms, and rightly so,  once some of these prototype cases were released and LHL did the right, but painful, thing in stopping production and retooling. It's clearly taken a while, and most of you are still awaiting your units, but the answer appears to be a good one, with the new cases being much, much better. Here's a few comparison photos of the old and new cases side-by-side.
 
Fronts

 
Backs

 
Bottom edges

 
Sides

 
As you can see the main change has been the front and back plates, which are now aluminum panels that have been punched for the vents and light holes and laser etched for the writing. The edges and part of the body still look to be the 3D printed high-temp plastic, but in the limited portions that you see now I don't find it to be an issue. Are the buttons something that Steve Jobs would have approved for use on the iPhone? No, but they are fully functional and compared to many DAPs and amps I've seen on the market these days they're just fine, especially for this price-point. The addition of the aluminum makes the V2+ also feel much more substantial, and also a bit heavier. Flipping the V2+ over and looking at their backs, you'll see the new unit keeps the slick aluminum panel and ditches the 6 exposed screw heads. This might make replacing the battery more of a challenge, but it looks much cleaner and less like a high-school shop design project. The new case is a winner in my book - it looks slick, feels good in the hand and is so much more professional. This is something you'd buy at a store. 
 
One of the reasons for the 3D printed high-temp plastic was to get past the temperature issues some had with the original GO's, whose aluminum bodies could get really hot. Doesn't appear to be an issue here, as I've had the new V2+ playing on high gain on high def files now for a few hours sitting on my desk and it's cool as a cucumber. Seems to be a non-issue at this point and looks like the combo of 3D resin and aluminum panels, plus some circuit changes from the GO V1, have effectively dealt with any heat generated. Another problem solved. 
 
So remember the close-up of the writing on the original case? Let's see that same portion on the new unit. Sorry the picture isn't totally in focus, that's my fault, but trust me the actual printing is very sharp and the holes in the Al panels work much better than the "thin sections" in the original plastic that the light was supposed to shine through.  
 

 
So it seems to me that LHL has come up with a case for the V2+ that really works. This also gives me real hope for the Wave as they've clearly been coming up (or maybe more appropriately getting their butts kicked up) the learning curve on case design. Well done. 
 
Now in terms of the SQ, the circuitry I believe has stayed exactly the same from old to new case V2+'s. Putting the prototype case V2+ Infinity up next to the new case V2+ Infinity I can't tell any differences in sound. Same goes for the usability of the unit. I've played it from my PC and from my iPhone, in both balanced and SE outputs and it all works well. The V2+ Infinity is currently driving my LCD-3's, so they can drive big cans as well as CIEMs. Speaking of CIEM's, using my Noble K10's, I don't hear any sign of the dreaded hiss (even on highest gain) that bothers so many using sensitive transducers. Again, Larry knows his circuits. The sound coming out of the V2+ Infinity is really good, reminding me (probably not surprisingly) of my Pulse Infinity, just in a much smaller form factor. Actually for the price paid and size of the form-factor the V2+ might be the better bang for the buck, as the sound is really good an almost the equal of my desktop Infinity. Again, more to say on SQ as I spend more time with the new unit, but all seems good. 
 
I know some have written off LHL due to the trials and tribulations of their multiple crowd-funding efforts, and not infrequent set-backs/delays/communication stumbles. Well, given the work they've done on the V2+ (and Larry's wizardry with circuit design and implementation) I'd say they deserve another look, at least for this unit. And for those of you who are awaiting a V2+ I hope you are as happy with the changes they've made to the units case as I am, and will enjoy the great music coming from this little wonder. 
 
Cheers all and Happy New Year
 
Jan 1, 2016 at 12:40 PM Post #733 of 2,040
Nice review Michael!  Thanks for taking the time to show and tell.  Although the aluminum front and back panels are a MAJOR improvement and Larry's circuit wizardry aside I still feel, especially at the Infinity levels which are not cheap $$ wise, that the 3D printed sides and buttons just appear cheap in contrast to the rest of the aesthetic.  I will enjoy using mine when it arrives but it won't win any enclosure design contests. Compromise, compromise, compromise.
 
Hopefully, the Wave will have a much better enclosure aesthetic!
 
Jan 1, 2016 at 9:13 PM Post #735 of 2,040
  Nice review Michael!  Thanks for taking the time to show and tell.  Although the aluminum front and back panels are a MAJOR improvement and Larry's circuit wizardry aside I still feel, especially at the Infinity levels which are not cheap $$ wise, that the 3D printed sides and buttons just appear cheap in contrast to the rest of the aesthetic.  I will enjoy using mine when it arrives but it won't win any enclosure design contests. Compromise, compromise, compromise.
 
Hopefully, the Wave will have a much better enclosure aesthetic!

Thanks! 
 
And understand your concerns, but the 3D printed sides are not bad at all, and I don't find them to detract from the unit in this version. My comment about Steve Jobs was related to his description of one of the iPhones as being like the finish of a "old Leica camera" (or something like that - and I actually do own an old Leica camera), so the bar was very high. I just looked very closely at the prototype and current cases and I would say the new version is even a bit better better finished and implemented in the 3D printing. 
 
Cheers my friends
 

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