RockStar2005
Headphoneus Supremus
lol
The S9+'s audio review on their site was pretty positive as well. Assuming that is ALSO BS, then yeah What Hi-Fi? needs to STOP reviewing smartphones. lol
LG V30
- Thread starter ModestMase
- Start date
lol
The S9+'s audio review on their site was pretty positive as well. Assuming that is ALSO BS, then yeah What Hi-Fi? needs to STOP reviewing smartphones. lol
What Hi-Fi have been disappointing me with their reviews for a while now. Most of them just cater to the generation of reader that doesn't have the attention span/willingness to invest more than 3 minutes reading a review. At best they're TLDR points formatted into sentences. I do tend to use their star reviews as a gauge for a product's general quality, but wish they put more effort into their write ups. But yeah, their smartphone audio reviews are definitely the most questionable. They love their iDevices.
This seems to be an ever growing trend amongst magazines in this day & age. I use Feedly to aggregate feeds from a number of sources. Surprisingly its a number of the new boys who have only ever been online who are producing the most thorough and interesting content (GSM Arena springs to mind), wheras some of the worst are magazines who were once leaders in their areas of printed media.
For me, the slew of heavy metal publications who insist on effectively publishing 'tweets' like a woman's gossip column is most upsetting. I fail to see why any metals fans give a hoot about Metallica doing a Dixie Chicks cover during their Nashville gig or other similarly inane content. *shudder*
RockStar2005
Headphoneus Supremus
lol Yeah I heard about Metallica doing that cover too.
For me, when I read articles, I tend to skip over the ones that elude to something in the headline but then either take forever to tell you or else don't use bullet points or sub-headlines to direct you to the main point. But when it comes to audio reviews, I expect more. Using vague wording and such only makes me question the person writing it.
RockStar2005
Headphoneus Supremus
Yeah sometimes I may just check their star reviews AND the pros/cons part right below it for any audio tidbits. But in general I still think their reviews, though not as detailed as I'd like sometimes, end up being in line with my experience with whichever device they're reviewing.
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The best measurements I've seen of the iPhone dongle are here: https://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-quality.htm. Ken has a Rohde & Schwarz UPL audio analyzer, which is quite a bit better than my best gadget, the RME ADI-2 Pro. Both are good enough to measure iPhones, but you could virtually measure distortion on a Chord Hugo 2 with the low analog-in THD of the R&S analyzer.
One point to clear up first - there's nothing magical about the DAC in the iPhone X, because it doesn't have a DAC - at least not for the headphone output. There's been no headphone DAC or amp in the iPhone since the iPhone 7. There's been no change in the dongle specs either, so the above measurements apply to all current generations of headphone-jack-less iPhones.
In full and fair disclosure - I've owned several generations of iPhone, but eventually saw the light. As far as I'm concerned Apple are now (or perhaps they always were?) worse than a shady second-hand car dealer. They're simply conning people who could get a much better deal with Android. The irony is, many of the people being conned would jump off a cliff in defense of Apple.
That being said, Ken's measurements of the Apple dongle are quite comparable to those of the V30. Both output impedances ~ 1 Ohm. THD ~ 0.0035% with similar RMS input voltages. (N.B. It's listed at 0.004% THD on the ES9218p data sheet, but that was into a lower impedance load of 32 Ohm, vs 37.5 Ohm with Ken's measurements. Also, Ken's figure is wrong, with the 0.0035% THD result being shown for a 200 kOhm load, not 37.5 Ohm, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume this was just some kind of typo.) Both devices have virtually silent noise floors and both measure ruler flat to 20 kHz. The one difference is the output power. If you only have 32 Ohm headphones, you might be happy with either device, but if you have more power-hungry (higher-impedance) headphones, the V30 is the clear winner, IMHO.
As for those comments by reviewers, we see this way too often. A reviewer has to say something (especially if they can't afford any kind of measurement rig), so they make stuff up. If you were an Apple fan, I think it'd be impossible to hear an iDevice vs an Android device and not have your own confirmation bias/placebo-effecting neurons go into overdrive.
P.S. It's also worth noting that the measurements of the dongle are also pretty comparable with those of prior iPhones that had a headphone socket built in. So the promise/hype of the headphone jack removal leading to better-quality audio clearly hasn't happened. You have basically the same SQ as before (with a dongle) or you're limited to the AAC audio codec via Bluetooth. Some consumers cleary do understand what's going on - Apple's dongle enjoys only a 1.5/5 star rating on Apple's own website
P.P.S. One small correction. The earlier iPhones (with 3.5 mm headphone sockets) did have a higher z-out (~5 Ohm), so this would have made a perceivable difference with headphones up to ~40 Ohm. Still, there's no good reason Apple couldn't have upgraded the DAC/amp chips and left the headphone socket in place. There'd still have been nothing stopping people from using Bluetooth or Lightning-out if they preferred. And for those that really hated the headphone jack and insisted on being shot of that 100-year-old technology, they would always have had the option of Gorilla glue - just to make sure they were never again tempted to plug in those nasty analogue headphones
One point to clear up first - there's nothing magical about the DAC in the iPhone X, because it doesn't have a DAC - at least not for the headphone output. There's been no headphone DAC or amp in the iPhone since the iPhone 7. There's been no change in the dongle specs either, so the above measurements apply to all current generations of headphone-jack-less iPhones.
In full and fair disclosure - I've owned several generations of iPhone, but eventually saw the light. As far as I'm concerned Apple are now (or perhaps they always were?) worse than a shady second-hand car dealer. They're simply conning people who could get a much better deal with Android. The irony is, many of the people being conned would jump off a cliff in defense of Apple.
That being said, Ken's measurements of the Apple dongle are quite comparable to those of the V30. Both output impedances ~ 1 Ohm. THD ~ 0.0035% with similar RMS input voltages. (N.B. It's listed at 0.004% THD on the ES9218p data sheet, but that was into a lower impedance load of 32 Ohm, vs 37.5 Ohm with Ken's measurements. Also, Ken's figure is wrong, with the 0.0035% THD result being shown for a 200 kOhm load, not 37.5 Ohm, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume this was just some kind of typo.) Both devices have virtually silent noise floors and both measure ruler flat to 20 kHz. The one difference is the output power. If you only have 32 Ohm headphones, you might be happy with either device, but if you have more power-hungry (higher-impedance) headphones, the V30 is the clear winner, IMHO.
As for those comments by reviewers, we see this way too often. A reviewer has to say something (especially if they can't afford any kind of measurement rig), so they make stuff up. If you were an Apple fan, I think it'd be impossible to hear an iDevice vs an Android device and not have your own confirmation bias/placebo-effecting neurons go into overdrive.
P.S. It's also worth noting that the measurements of the dongle are also pretty comparable with those of prior iPhones that had a headphone socket built in. So the promise/hype of the headphone jack removal leading to better-quality audio clearly hasn't happened. You have basically the same SQ as before (with a dongle) or you're limited to the AAC audio codec via Bluetooth. Some consumers cleary do understand what's going on - Apple's dongle enjoys only a 1.5/5 star rating on Apple's own website
P.P.S. One small correction. The earlier iPhones (with 3.5 mm headphone sockets) did have a higher z-out (~5 Ohm), so this would have made a perceivable difference with headphones up to ~40 Ohm. Still, there's no good reason Apple couldn't have upgraded the DAC/amp chips and left the headphone socket in place. There'd still have been nothing stopping people from using Bluetooth or Lightning-out if they preferred. And for those that really hated the headphone jack and insisted on being shot of that 100-year-old technology, they would always have had the option of Gorilla glue - just to make sure they were never again tempted to plug in those nasty analogue headphones
Last edited:
RockStar2005
Headphoneus Supremus
The best measurements I've seen of the iPhone dongle are here: https://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-quality.htm. Ken has a Rohde & Schwarz UPL audio analyzer, which is quite a bit better than my best gadget, the RME ADI-2 Pro. Both are good enough to measure iPhones, but you could virtually measure distortion on a Chord Hugo 2 with the low analog-in THD of the R&S analyzer.
One point to clear up first - there's nothing magical about the DAC in the iPhone X, because it doesn't have a DAC - at least not for the headphone output. There's been no headphone DAC or amp in the iPhone since the iPhone 7. There's been no change in the dongle specs either, so the above measurements apply to all current generations of headphone-jack-less iPhones.
In full and fair disclosure - I've owned several generations of iPhone, but eventually saw the light. As far as I'm concerned Apple are now (or perhaps they always were?) worse than a shady second-hand car dealer. They're simply conning people who could get a much better deal with Android. The irony is, many of the people being conned would jump off a cliff in defense of Apple.
That being said, Ken's measurements of the Apple dongle are quite comparable to those of the V30. Both output impedances ~ 1 Ohm. THD ~ 0.0035% with similar RMS input voltages. (N.B. It's listed at 0.004% THD on the ES9218p data sheet, but that was into a lower impedance load of 32 Ohm, vs 37.5 Ohm with Ken's measurements. Also, Ken's figure is wrong, with the 0.0035% THD result being shown for a 200 kOhm load, not 37.5 Ohm, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume this was just some kind of typo.) Both devices have virtually silent noise floors and both measure ruler flat to 20 kHz. The one difference is the output power. If you only have 32 Ohm headphones, you might be happy with either device, but if you have more power-hungry (higher-impedance) headphones, the V30 is the clear winner, IMHO.
As for those comments by reviewers, we see this way too often. A reviewer has to say something (especially if they can't afford any kind of measurement rig), so they make stuff up. If you were an Apple fan, I think it'd be impossible to hear an iDevice vs an Android device and not have your own confirmation bias/placebo-effecting neurons go into overdrive.
P.S. It's also worth noting that the measurements of the dongle are also pretty comparable with those of prior iPhones that had a headphone socket built in. So the promise/hype of the headphone jack removal leading to better-quality audio clearly hasn't happened. You have basically the same SQ as before (with a dongle) or you're limited to the AAC audio codec via Bluetooth. Some consumers cleary do understand what's going on - Apple's dongle enjoys only a 1.5/5 star rating on Apple's own website
P.P.S. One small correction. The earlier iPhones (with 3.5 mm headphone sockets) did have a higher z-out (~5 Ohm), so this would have made a perceivable difference with headphones up to ~40 Ohm. Still, there's no good reason Apple couldn't have upgraded the DAC/amp chips and left the headphone socket in place. There'd still have been nothing stopping people from using Bluetooth or Lightning-out if they preferred. And for those that really hated the headphone jack and insisted on being shot of that 100-year-old technology, they would always have had the option of Gorilla glue - just to make sure they were never again tempted to plug in those nasty analogue headphones
Wow csg. Yeah, I don't agree with Ken either. Sorry. Why is it my friend who has an iPhone, compared the iPhone he had 3 years ago with the DFB, and said the DFB sounded better? THAT is what I don't get. lol Was it because it was 2015 and not 2017 iPhone X?? Maybe? lol
Well that's TWO pro reviews saying the newer iPhones outdo even at least other smartphones, if not in this case, other audiophile products. I still have my doubts though. Not even so much anymore on iPhone X vs. LG V30, but iPhone X (or iPhone 7 even) being able to "outdo various audiophile amp/DACs.".
So wait, you DON'T side with Ken then, or do you? I'm confused. lol
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Ken hasn't measured the V30 (that I know of), so his measurements are just that. There's no comparison there. TBH, I've never compared the Apple dongle output to that of my V30, and I'm afraid I have no plans to buy Apple products ever again in my lifetime, so somebody else is going to have to do that study
DFR should have sounded notably better than the older iPhones, because they had fairly high output impedances. The z-out is better (lower) with the dongle, but what Ken didn't mention is the dongle has a reduced dynamic range w.r.t. the older iPhones.
Someone has to do a blind A/B and let us know, but my money's on the V30
RockStar2005
Headphoneus Supremus
Ken hasn't measured the V30 (that I know of), so his measurements are just that. There's no comparison there. TBH, I've never compared the Apple dongle output to that of my V30, and I'm afraid I have no plans to buy Apple products ever again in my lifetime, so somebody else is going to have to do that study
DFR should have sounded notably better than the older iPhones, because they had fairly high output impedances. The z-out is better (lower) with the dongle, but what Ken didn't mention is the dongle has a reduced dynamic range w.r.t. the older iPhones.
Someone has to do a blind A/B and let us know, but my money's on the V30
Well it was iPhone 7 vs. DFB, but still. lol
Yeah me too! lol I'd also like to see a comparison of the iPhone X to like the DFR or DFB, or even better the Sabaj Da3.
Psycho-Prof
Head-Fier
Ken Rockwell makes a living posting awful reviews of camera gear (Nikon mostly). I would not take a thing he writes seriously ever. It's all about "Please help Ken Rockwell" (i.e. donate)....
RockStar2005
Headphoneus Supremus
LOL! Ok then.
Yeah I guess I should just disregard his review. And any smartphone ones by What Hi-Fi? too.
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I don't know if he really makes a living from those $5 donations. He'll have a $40,000 hole from the cost of his measurement equipment
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Poor Apple users!!!!! All iPhones using the headphone socket are now officially dead - and the new iPhones don't even come with a dongle.
Even if you buy the $1500 XS Max version, you've still got to go out and buy your own $9 dongle if you want to use that nasty old analog tech!
I've been warning Apple fans for years about the sketchy direction this company was headed: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/apple-ditching-3-5mm-jack.795656/page-2#post-12708687
Even if you buy the $1500 XS Max version, you've still got to go out and buy your own $9 dongle if you want to use that nasty old analog tech!
I've been warning Apple fans for years about the sketchy direction this company was headed: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/apple-ditching-3-5mm-jack.795656/page-2#post-12708687
RockStar2005
Headphoneus Supremus
Yeah I think that's total BS. It's bad enough they raise the prices on these phones, take away the headphone jack, and then, NO more dongle?? lol I guess they are trying to push for (sub-par) wireless and figure why not use that as an excuse NOT to spend extra $$ on giving customers a free dongle. Total BS there.
Yes, apparently you were. lol
I just kept hearing words like amazing, awesome, incredible and great in that keynote. Reminded me of hypnosis and/or the art of suggestion.
I didn't find anything like those words above in that keynote. Did like the watch though.
I didn't find anything like those words above in that keynote. Did like the watch though.
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